ATC Automatic Tool Changer Setup

[deanr181]

Hi all,

Just purchased a Masso G3 to use on my CNC router with an ATC

There are 4 air solenoids for the following:

• Tool Release uses 12V solenoid
  
• Tool Clamp uses 12V solenoid
  
• Air Seal uses 12V solenoid (can activate with Spindle signal)
  
• Dust Removal uses 12V solenoid (Masso has an output but not sure how to set it up)
  

I also have a tool clamp sensor and a tool release sensor. NPN

I had all this running perfectly on Mach3 with an ATC screenset from CNC4XR7, but I am at a toatl loss how to hook it up to Masso.

The draw bar needs to retract and the release sensor needs to then sense the tool is released before is can continue to select the next tool.

The new tool then needs to be clamped and the clamp sensor to sense the tool is clamped before moving on.

There are no inputs listed for these sensors or any instruction on how to set up the ATC with theses functions.

Does anyone have the same or similar setup than you can advise how to hook it up?

I have no idea how to write G-Code or any other programming so hope it is straight forward.

Thanks

Dean

 

[BlackJack555]

Hi all,

Just purchased a Masso G3 to use on my CNC router with an ATC

There are 4 air solenoids for the following:

• Tool Release uses 12V solenoid
• Tool Clamp uses 12V solenoid
• Air Seal uses 12V solenoid (can activate with Spindle signal)
• Dust Removal uses 12V solenoid (Masso has an output but not sure how to set it up)

I also have a tool clamp sensor and a tool release sensor. NPN

I had all this running perfectly on Mach3 with an ATC screenset from CNC4XR7, but I am at a toatl loss how to hook it up to Masso.

The draw bar needs to retract and the release sensor needs to then sense the tool is released before is can continue to select the next tool.

The new tool then needs to be clamped and the clamp sensor to sense the tool is clamped before moving on.

There are no inputs listed for these sensors or any instruction on how to set up the ATC with theses functions.

Does anyone have the same or similar setup than you can advise how to hook it up?

I have no idea how to write G-Code or any other programming so hope it is straight forward.

Thanks

Dean

HI Dean I am at this very same point in my build my machine is finished the only thing I have to sort out is the two clamp and unclamp sensors how did you get on what did you end up doing any help would be great many thanks Bill

 

[cncnutz]

Hi Dean
You have not defined what type of tool changer you are setting up.
Each tool changer has different inputs and output so you need specify which one you are implementing.

Regards Peter

 

[tmtoronto]

I looked at the manual pages provided by the OP, and I have the same spindle.

@BlackJack555 do you also have a Jianken ATC spindle?

I have mine set up as a type 2 linear tool change, and can perhaps help if you are using this logic - as @cncnutz mentions this is needed information.

 

[BlackJack555]

I looked at the manual pages provided by the OP, and I have the same spindle.

@BlackJack555 do you also have a Jianken ATC spindle?

I have mine set up as a type 2 linear tool change, and can perhaps help if you are using this logic - as @cncnutz mentions this is needed information.

Yes I have a Jiaken 3.2 Kw ATC spindle with the 4 air fittings # air inlet # dust # air return & # air sealed and the two PNP sensors for clamp and unclamp . My tool rack is like yours (type two linear) so two strait rows of 8 tool holders side by side 16 total. I have my solenoids (with fly back diodes installed) regulators and a manifold set up on a board which mounts on the wall behind the machine I am now trying to work through how to wire it all to Masso it's the same old question that has been asked many times ...............How to wire the two clamp / unclamp sensors to Masso when Masso only has one input . Of course you can run the machine without the sensors but if the spindle ever started up with a tool not clamped properly it could be very dangerous so I feel it is something that should be addressed any help would be appreciated

 

[BlackJack555]

specifically I will need an output to trigger a relay for air inlet and dust for tool clamp up and an output to trigger a relay for the air return to be on for 5 seconds (will need logic or timer) after tool is clamped and an output to turn on air seal when ever the spindle is running then a way to use the two clamp and unclamp PNP sensors with Masso Cheers Bill

 

[tmtoronto]

Actually Masso has/uses two inputs for this in the Type two logic - from the online manual:

INPUTS​

• Tool Changer – Input 1 for Spindle drawbar Status (Low for clamped and High for un-clamped)
• Tool Changer – Input 2 for Tool in place Status (Alarm when Low)
• Tool Changer – Input 3 for Dust Hood UP OK signal (High means hood UP)

Also, which VFD are you using?
I followed a fait bit of the wiring strategy shown in Clough42's build. He uses a different spindle, but has my Hitachi WJ200 VFD.
Here is one video in the series you may find informative as it shows and explains his safety circuit.

I will double check my wiring when at my machine again and confirm what I did.

 

[tmtoronto]

specifically I will need an output to trigger a relay for air inlet and dust for tool clamp up and an output to trigger a relay for the air return to be on for 5 seconds (will need logic or timer) after tool is clamped and an output to turn on air seal when ever the spindle is running then a way to use the two clamp and unclamp PNP sensors with Masso Cheers Bill

The logic has a 6 second delay available already, again from the manual:

OUTPUTS​

• Chuck Clamp M10/M11 for spindle drawbar clamp and un-clamp (Low to clamp and High to un-clamp)
• Tool Changer – Output 1 to move Dust Hood UP/DOWN (When HIGH the hood will move UP)
• Tool Changer – Output 2 for air return (Will stay high for 6 seconds after tool change)
• Tool Changer – Output 3 for spindle clean air blast

​

INFORMATION: From MASSO software v3.48, if "Tool Changer - Output 2" is not assigned as an output in the F1-Setup screen then the 6 second delay is automatically ignored by the logic.

 

[BlackJack555]

Hi thanks for getting back to me I am using a Simphoenix E550 1000 Hz I will play around with those settings over the next couple of days and get back to you many thanks for your help cheers bill. PS waiting for your next YouTube video

 

[tmtoronto]

Hi thanks for getting back to me I am using a Simphoenix E550 1000 Hz I will play around with those settings over the next couple of days and get back to you many thanks for your help cheers bill. PS waiting for your next YouTube video

Happy to help..and thanks.
I have been spending my time designing and planning a new Z axis assembly - so less machine time - more time on Ebay looking for quality linear motion hardware.
.
I also am doing a bit of a deep dive into rigidity testing of my CNC router.

I really should machine something!

 

[BlackJack555]

Hi I plumbed all the air hoses and did a temp wire up today just through two toggle switch's And so I have the air inlet and the dust removal solenoids operating together on one switch and the air return operating on the other switch and the tool change works perfectly the air seal is wired but I did not connect it to a switch for the test so far all great . I configured the input and output as per the information you supplied today tomorrow I will wire the spindle sensors and the air solenoids to Masso and see how I go Ok cheers Bill

 

[tmtoronto]

That is great news - progress is looking good so far.

One thing you may want to do as a future project is allow for the manual control of some of these solenoids as well.
I like to use DIN rails so I have a bank of terminal blocks that I used to connect simple toggle switches (for testing but they work well so I have not changed to lighted push buttons yet) on a temporary panel to the tool change and air return. This way I can manually change tools - and with Masso's new tool change logic coming this will work even better. The air seal I have set to only come on when the spindle runs, and the air blast as well stays automatic in its functioning.

Keep the updates coming!

 

[BlackJack555]

Ok today I have been working on wiring the solenoids and sensor to Masso
.First I wired output #1 to relay #1 to Chuck Clamp M10/M11 clamp / unclamp solenoid which is bridged to the dust removal solenoid
then I wired output #2 to relay #2 to the air return solenoid
then I wired output #3 to relay #3 to the air seal

Turned on Masso and using the MDI screen and the set spindle clamp off button I was able to clamp and unclamp a tool holder the 3 second wait on the clamp is annoying the toggle switch's were much nicer ....... but I was not getting any response form air return I checked with a multi meter and the No 2 relay is not activating after spindle clamp ????? I don't know why

then I moved on to wiring the spindle sensors I have them hooked up But before I go any further could you confirm my thinking regarding there hook up ... so diagram shows
Brown wire 10-30 volts
Blue wire 0V so ground
black wire 200mA max

Am I correct in thinking run 24 V from Masso to Brown wire and ground from Masso to Blue wire ok strait forward
and then the sensor will output a mA signal to Masso to indicate it's state Low or High

I have one sensor signal wire going to input 19 and the other to input 20 as in the photo
And in F1 I have configured 19 for Spindle draw bar status and 20 for Tool in place

Masso already has inputs 1 / 2 / 3 wired to the cycle start and stop buttons

I have not yet come up with a way to switch the air seal relay on when spindle starts up I think you have done it through your VFD but I have not seen a way to do that with my VFD

Anyway am I on the right track should I power up Masso and see if input 19 / 20 change from low to high I may have to swap them around as there is no way to know which is which one has 22 on the cable and the other 11 but Jaiken make no reference to that

Many thanks Cheers Bill The screen shots are with the tool unclamped But input 19 does not change form high to low clamped or unclamped ..just checked connections of tool changer 2 connector plug up near spindle and one wire has pulled out so I am off back into the workshop to sort that Ok cheers again Bill

 

[cncnutz]

Do not invert the chuck clamp logic.
The chuck clamp is linked to the spindle logic and it may prevent the spindle from running and prevent the chuck clamp opening.
Instead use the other contact set on the Chuck clamp relay. Eg use the NO instead of the NC or visa versa.

I don't know if it will fix your problem but always fix the obvious first before looking for the strange issues.

Cheers Peter

 

[BlackJack555]

Do not invert the chuck clamp logic.
The chuck clamp is linked to the spindle logic and it may prevent the spindle from running and prevent the chuck clamp opening.
Instead use the other contact set on the Chuck clamp relay. Eg use the NO instead of the NC or visa versa.

I don't know if it will fix your problem but always fix the obvious first before looking for the strange issues.

Cheers Peter

Hi Peter the chuck clamp logic is ok output 1 is low when clamped and high when unclamped the spindle only runs when spindle is clamped my problem is there is no signal to activate relay 2 for the air return and currently working on trying to get a change of status Low to High from tool changer 1 and 2 that the PNP sensors on the spindle are connected to

Cheers Bill

 

[cncnutz]

I admit that I don't know for sure but I would be very wary about inverting the chuck clamp. I think that you will find that internally when the spindle clamp says it is low It is actually High and it might be the problem. The logic might be looking at the actual output status taking into account the invert status but it might not be. Personally I don't see any need to invert it in the first place and complicate matters by introducing unknowns that may have you chasing your tail for days. Just my thoughts and the only thing I know for sure is that I am either right or I am wrong and time will tell.


If you don't know how to wire a particular sensor use the link below to identify your sensor type and it will tell you how to wire it.

Sensor Identify & Connecting

docs.masso.com.au

PNP & NPN don't really mean a lot as I found when I tried to categorize the sensor types. It is their internal construction that matters. Some will require pull up resistors and others won't.


Cheers Peter

 

[BlackJack555]

I admit that I don't know for sure but I would be very wary about inverting the chuck clamp. I think that you will find that internally when the spindle clamp says it is low It is actually High and it might be the problem. The logic might be looking at the actual output status taking into account the invert status but it might not be. Personally I don't see any need to invert it in the first place and complicate matters by introducing unknowns that may have you chasing your tail for days. Just my thoughts and the only thing I know for sure is that I am either right or I am wrong and time will tell.


If you don't know how to wire a particular sensor use the link below to identify your sensor type and it will tell you how to wire it.

Sensor Identify & Connecting

docs.masso.com.au

PNP & NPN don't really mean a lot as I found when I tried to categorize the sensor types. It is their internal construction that matters. Some will require pull up resistors and others won't.


Cheers Peter

Morning Peter
I will heed your warning and will not invert the chuck clamp to try and resolve my issues ( as I said clamp and unclamp works fine ) I will test the spindle sensors as you suggested to try and work out what type they are and get back to you
thanks for your help
Cheers Bill

 

[BlackJack555]

Hi Peter
I tested both of the spindle sensors and the results don't line up with any of the samples in Masso's sensor identification chart
as when tested in normal state +V is (24v) so that's a 1 and the 0v is O and its's the same when triggered and the same for both sensors
I did test both sensors signal wire and they were consistently 1.4 mA when the sensors were triggered . It looks like Masso is reading the trigger signal as tool change input 19 is low when clamped and changes to high when unclamped... and tool change input 20 changes form high when clamped to low when unclamped

There is some logic happening as the spindle will only run when it is clamped and stops if you try to unclamp when running so I still don't know if the sensors need pull up resistors or not I have wired the spindle sensor as per the Jiaken manual please see attached

Cheers Bill

PS I will ask Tom if he had to use pull up resistors

 

[cncnutz]

If only you had that information to share when you first asked your question about sensors. It would have save a lot of time.
From the supplied information the PNP do not need pull up resistors and since you say they are changing between High & low is means they are working.
Why are you continuing to try and work out how to connect them when you say they are working?

This does not make any sense.

Why did you measuring the current when you did the identification testing?
The identification testing calls for voltage readings. Measuring the current is likely to blow the sensor outputs but thankfully from what you are saying they are working ok.

I cannot think of anywhere in the MASSO documentation where it asks to measure current for a test. They are all voltage readings form memory.
Please be very careful when measuring current as you can do a lot of damage in the blink of an eye if you put the probes in the wrong place.


I know you said you will not invert the chuck clamp which is good but I thought I would mention a more important reason for not inverting outputs unless you really have too and this is something that needs to be understood.

An input is only inverted while MASSO is up and running.
If you invert the output to clamp the tool then at start up the relay will not operate until the MASSO processor starts, checks what the invert status of the output is set too and then inverts the output.
This means that for 5 to 10 seconds the chuck clamp will be open until MASSO starts and checks the state the output is set too and then operate the relay to clamp the chuck. The tool could potentially fall out or release from the chuck ready to eject when you start the spindle.
This is something you need to keep in mind. Very few outputs should be inverted and you must take into account the state it will be in when MASSO initially starts.
For example if you invert the spindle then the spindle will immediately start on power up and after about 10 seconds will stop once the processor sets the output to correct output status.

Cheers Peter

 

[BlackJack555]

Good morning Peter

Well interesting you say that because even though the machine was turned off with a tool clamped in the spindle. On restart
the tool falls out of the spindle I check the status of the chuck clamp and it high and the relay light is on even if I wait 30 to 40 seconds it does not re clamp I use the chuck clamp button in the MDI and it clamps the status changes to low and the relay goes off

Interesting you said "operates the relay to CLAMP the chuck" Some spindles might need air to clamp . But mine needs air to unclamp so I need the relay to be off on start up ( off when clamped)
could this be where we are going wrong

Cheers Bill