Centroid/procam conversion - VFD contactor intergration

[lpnb]

Hi,

I am converting the above machine and am just sorting out the E-stop functionality. this is going into a commercial environment so I need to get the safety right.

My question is regarding re-using the contactor - this contactor breaks 3-phase power to the spindle VFD (Fuji FVR-E11).

The contactor is hard wired into the e-stop circuit and is mentioned in the Fuji manual as an acceptable method to e-stop the spindle. I would really like to send the BRAKE command to the VFD to stop it (as per Masso documentation) but of course if the contactor is tripped and with no input power how can this happen? I don't know but I assume the VFD having no power, the spindle will naturally slow to a halt.???

Also the BRAKE command was not used in the previous set-up.

I suppose I could test this but I still have a lot of set-up to do before safe to power up. as the old system blew up and has been completely removed.

The contactor also breaks the power to the Servos on the original system but I am not going to keep this setup and will send a disable signal to the drives.

Any thoughts about the contactor re-use?

thanks

lpnb

 

[tayloredtech]

Quote from lpnb on November 6, 2018, 3:25 am

Hi,

I am converting the above machine and am just sorting out the E-stop functionality. this is going into a commercial environment so I need to get the safety right.

My question is regarding re-using the contactor - this contactor breaks 3-phase power to the spindle VFD (Fuji FVR-E11).

The contactor is hard wired into the e-stop circuit and is mentioned in the Fuji manual as an acceptable method to e-stop the spindle. I would really like to send the BRAKE command to the VFD to stop it (as per Masso documentation) but of course if the contactor is tripped and with no input power how can this happen? I don't know but I assume the VFD having no power, the spindle will naturally slow to a halt.???

Also the BRAKE command was not used in the previous set-up.

I suppose I could test this but I still have a lot of set-up to do before safe to power up. as the old system blew up and has been completely removed.

The contactor also breaks the power to the Servos on the original system but I am not going to keep this setup and will send a disable signal to the drives.

Any thoughts about the contactor re-use?

thanks

lpnb

Which was the brake code you speak of? Most VFDs would have a off trigger as much as an on trigger so you could have the E-stop physically disconnect the on trigger which would have the VFD ramp down the spindle speed as fast as it's programmed in the VFD. Some spindles will have a DC injection brake but you would have to find the documentation and wires for it.

Which spindle is it?

 

[lpnb]

Quote from TayloredTech on November 6, 2018, 4:16 am

Quote from lpnb on November 6, 2018, 3:25 am

Hi,

I am converting the above machine and am just sorting out the E-stop functionality. this is going into a commercial environment so I need to get the safety right.

My question is regarding re-using the contactor - this contactor breaks 3-phase power to the spindle VFD (Fuji FVR-E11).

The contactor is hard wired into the e-stop circuit and is mentioned in the Fuji manual as an acceptable method to e-stop the spindle. I would really like to send the BRAKE command to the VFD to stop it (as per Masso documentation) but of course if the contactor is tripped and with no input power how can this happen? I don't know but I assume the VFD having no power, the spindle will naturally slow to a halt.???

Also the BRAKE command was not used in the previous set-up.

I suppose I could test this but I still have a lot of set-up to do before safe to power up. as the old system blew up and has been completely removed.

The contactor also breaks the power to the Servos on the original system but I am not going to keep this setup and will send a disable signal to the drives.

Any thoughts about the contactor re-use?

thanks

lpnb

Which was the brake code you speak of? Most VFDs would have a off trigger as much as an on trigger so you could have the E-stop physically disconnect the on trigger which would have the VFD ramp down the spindle speed as fast as it's programmed in the VFD. Some spindles will have a DC injection brake but you would have to find the documentation and wires for it.

Which spindle is it?

Its DCBRK - one of the X1-5 digital inputs (0 or 24v) and on = 24v and can't be inverted. That's all fine but of course shut the power off and there is no control from that input. I have all the documentation and have been through it.

There is also the Normal FWD and REV i/p's for spin-up and down which I am using.

I guess I look at it as having 2 options:

1. just use the DCBRK command with a relay held open with a normal continuous e-stop circuit or e-stop output from the Masso (I have the rev 6 version)
   
2. break the contactor on e-stop as it was with the Original system (this is preferred I think as far as standard practice goes) but of course the spin down time is still a safety compromise @ 18000rpm.
   

The spindle is a HSD ES919

Oh and the VFD has external braking resistors installed. Maybe when power is lost the spindle brakes but I am sure I read somewhere that the VFD just naturally spins down when power is lost.

I guess I need to answer which is the safest method - the one that is least likely to fail.

 

[lpnb]

found this : https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=107688

I think I may just stick with this contactor unless there are some better suggestions.

the other reason is that the machine was certified at some point the way it was, so keeping it that way is more comfortable.

thanks,

lpnb

 

[lpnb]

I have another question.....

Can the Masso generate an e-stop output by itself? that is, are there conditions where the e-stop is triggered without the physical e-stop buttons being pressed?

EDIT: The reason i ask is, you need to shut down servos and spindle in case of loss of air pressure or a door opening - which would be separate inputs into the Masso and not necessarily part of a stand-alone e-stop cct

 

[tayloredtech]

Quote from lpnb on November 6, 2018, 4:58 am

Quote from TayloredTech on November 6, 2018, 4:16 am

Quote from lpnb on November 6, 2018, 3:25 am

Hi,

I am converting the above machine and am just sorting out the E-stop functionality. this is going into a commercial environment so I need to get the safety right.

My question is regarding re-using the contactor - this contactor breaks 3-phase power to the spindle VFD (Fuji FVR-E11).

The contactor is hard wired into the e-stop circuit and is mentioned in the Fuji manual as an acceptable method to e-stop the spindle. I would really like to send the BRAKE command to the VFD to stop it (as per Masso documentation) but of course if the contactor is tripped and with no input power how can this happen? I don't know but I assume the VFD having no power, the spindle will naturally slow to a halt.???

Also the BRAKE command was not used in the previous set-up.

I suppose I could test this but I still have a lot of set-up to do before safe to power up. as the old system blew up and has been completely removed.

The contactor also breaks the power to the Servos on the original system but I am not going to keep this setup and will send a disable signal to the drives.

Any thoughts about the contactor re-use?

thanks

lpnb

Which was the brake code you speak of? Most VFDs would have a off trigger as much as an on trigger so you could have the E-stop physically disconnect the on trigger which would have the VFD ramp down the spindle speed as fast as it's programmed in the VFD. Some spindles will have a DC injection brake but you would have to find the documentation and wires for it.

Which spindle is it?

Its DCBRK - one of the X1-5 digital inputs (0 or 24v) and on = 24v and can't be inverted. That's all fine but of course shut the power off and there is no control from that input. I have all the documentation and have been through it.

There is also the Normal FWD and REV i/p's for spin-up and down which I am using.

I guess I look at it as having 2 options:

1. just use the DCBRK command with a relay held open with a normal continuous e-stop circuit or e-stop output from the Masso (I have the rev 6 version)
   
2. break the contactor on e-stop as it was with the Original system (this is preferred I think as far as standard practice goes) but of course the spin down time is still a safety compromise @ 18000rpm.
   

The spindle is a HSD ES919

Oh and the VFD has external braking resistors installed. Maybe when power is lost the spindle brakes but I am sure I read somewhere that the VFD just naturally spins down when power is lost.

I guess I need to answer which is the safest method - the one that is least likely to fail.

Oh nice, I have an older HSD ES915. Is yours the 11kw long neck? I have since found a manual which looks like it's for just about all their spindles, is really handy if you need any more info on which pins do what. I'm putting a contactor on mine but more so to switch things on and off remotely. Mine takes less than a second half to stop from full speed so I'd say the injection braking would be certainly safe. I'd actually think it would possibly turn off slower without it all a contactor might cut power but possibly keep it going longer. Best to try out I guess. I'll have to see this brake command, didn't see it in the documentation?

When I got the E-stop I would say the spindle would certainly be at rest within 2 seconds but it's highly likely it's a setting on the VFD. I have a 5hp Schneider altivar 18 three phase VFD which we've now decoded to work with variable speed and direction so maybe give the VFD a look over if it's too slow for you

 

[tayloredtech]

Quote from lpnb on November 6, 2018, 6:28 am

I have another question.....

Can the Masso generate an e-stop output by itself? that is, are there conditions where the e-stop is triggered without the physical e-stop buttons being pressed?

EDIT: The reason i ask is, you need to shut down servos and spindle in case of loss of air pressure or a door opening - which would be separate inputs into the Masso and not necessarily part of a stand-alone e-stop cct

There are spindle alarm inputs which will trigger warning outputs which you can writ to lights or another relay but they do pulse on and off when triggered.

 

[lpnb]

Oh nice, I have an older HSD ES915. Is yours the 11kw long neck? I have since found a manual which looks like it's for just about all their spindles, is really handy if you need any more info on which pins do what. I'm putting a contactor on mine but more so to switch things on and off remotely. Mine takes less than a second half to stop from full speed so I'd say the injection braking would be certainly safe. I'd actually think it would possibly turn off slower without it all a contactor might cut power but possibly keep it going longer. Best to try out I guess. I'll have to see this brake command, didn't see it in the documentation?

When I got the E-stop I would say the spindle would certainly be at rest within 2 seconds but it's highly likely it's a setting on the VFD. I have a 5hp Schneider altivar 18 three phase VFD which we've now decoded to work with variable speed and direction so maybe give the VFD a look over if it's too slow for you

This is a customers machine not mine.

Nah its the 8kw short nose. yeah I have a great manual, is this it?: http://support.technocnc.com/pdf/HSD_electro-spindles.pdf

thanks, yeah that's my thinking; that it will turn off slower with the contactor. Maybe there is a VFD that defaults to a brake condition on power loss. that would be neat!. There is also an optional physical brake available that normally clamped and you'd release it before you spin 'er up but this does not have that option installed. The brake command is for the Fuji VFD.

I would use the brake command, I am sure it is fast enough. my issue is that it is not a reliable "emergency" way of killing it. its bad to rely on a normally inactive signal to trigger the e-stop. just like you should NOT have a "make" type e-stop rather than a "break" config. because if you have a bad connection you don't know about it until its too late.

if the Masso fails in some unpredictable way and it fails to issue the E-stop output or there is an Open Circuit on the brake wire then you could be in trouble.

 

[lpnb]

Quote from TayloredTech on November 6, 2018, 9:04 am

There are spindle alarm inputs which will trigger warning outputs which you can writ to lights or another relay but they do pulse on and off when triggered.

What I mean is, can the E-stop output go into fault condition without the e-stop input triggering it.?

 

[tayloredtech]

Quote from lpnb on November 6, 2018, 10:39 am

Oh nice, I have an older HSD ES915. Is yours the 11kw long neck? I have since found a manual which looks like it's for just about all their spindles, is really handy if you need any more info on which pins do what. I'm putting a contactor on mine but more so to switch things on and off remotely. Mine takes less than a second half to stop from full speed so I'd say the injection braking would be certainly safe. I'd actually think it would possibly turn off slower without it all a contactor might cut power but possibly keep it going longer. Best to try out I guess. I'll have to see this brake command, didn't see it in the documentation?

When I got the E-stop I would say the spindle would certainly be at rest within 2 seconds but it's highly likely it's a setting on the VFD. I have a 5hp Schneider altivar 18 three phase VFD which we've now decoded to work with variable speed and direction so maybe give the VFD a look over if it's too slow for you

This is a customers machine not mine.

Nah its the 8kw short nose. yeah I have a great manual, is this it?: http://support.technocnc.com/pdf/HSD_electro-spindles.pdf

thanks, yeah that's my thinking; that it will turn off slower with the contactor. Maybe there is a VFD that defaults to a brake condition on power loss. that would be neat!. There is also an optional physical brake available that normally clamped and you'd release it before you spin 'er up but this does not have that option installed. The brake command is for the Fuji VFD.

I would use the brake command, I am sure it is fast enough. my issue is that it is not a reliable "emergency" way of killing it. its bad to rely on a normally inactive signal to trigger the e-stop. just like you should NOT have a "make" type e-stop rather than a "break" config. because if you have a bad connection you don't know about it until its too late.

if the Masso fails in some unpredictable way and it fails to issue the E-stop output or there is an Open Circuit on the brake wire then you could be in trouble.

Yeah I know what you mean. I use automation processors for work so I understand the idea of a mechanical redundancy when the programmed logic fails. You need them for suresure it comes to safety. I thought of a few ways to do it but ultimately a contactor will be the safest if the spindle slows fast enough.

My Z axis has a brake that when not energised actually pres pressure on a metal plate connected to the axis shaft, when Masso boots up, it energises and allows it to move freely. It's just spring loaded but certainly works. Not sure how that could help here but is a great safety method to stop it winding down into the table when off. These HSDs are so dam heavy.

Mine's only 3.8kw but is plenty for me.

How old is the machine? Are you doing a refurb for a customer?

 

[tayloredtech]

Quote from lpnb on November 6, 2018, 10:50 am

Quote from TayloredTech on November 6, 2018, 9:04 am

There are spindle alarm inputs which will trigger warning outputs which you can writ to lights or another relay but they do pulse on and off when triggered.

What I mean is, can the E-stop output go into fault condition without the e-stop input triggering it.?

I could be wrong but my understanding is there is no dedicated E-stop output. More warning and error light outputs. Those can be triggered by all sorts of alarm inputs and hard/ soft limits etc..

It would be a good thing to add into "feature requests" So you can activate a NC relay to open instantly so the contactor breaks

 

[lpnb]

Quote from TayloredTech on November 6, 2018, 11:39 am

Quote from lpnb on November 6, 2018, 10:39 am

Oh nice, I have an older HSD ES915. Is yours the 11kw long neck? I have since found a manual which looks like it's for just about all their spindles, is really handy if you need any more info on which pins do what. I'm putting a contactor on mine but more so to switch things on and off remotely. Mine takes less than a second half to stop from full speed so I'd say the injection braking would be certainly safe. I'd actually think it would possibly turn off slower without it all a contactor might cut power but possibly keep it going longer. Best to try out I guess. I'll have to see this brake command, didn't see it in the documentation?

When I got the E-stop I would say the spindle would certainly be at rest within 2 seconds but it's highly likely it's a setting on the VFD. I have a 5hp Schneider altivar 18 three phase VFD which we've now decoded to work with variable speed and direction so maybe give the VFD a look over if it's too slow for you

This is a customers machine not mine.

Nah its the 8kw short nose. yeah I have a great manual, is this it?: http://support.technocnc.com/pdf/HSD_electro-spindles.pdf

thanks, yeah that's my thinking; that it will turn off slower with the contactor. Maybe there is a VFD that defaults to a brake condition on power loss. that would be neat!. There is also an optional physical brake available that normally clamped and you'd release it before you spin 'er up but this does not have that option installed. The brake command is for the Fuji VFD.

I would use the brake command, I am sure it is fast enough. my issue is that it is not a reliable "emergency" way of killing it. its bad to rely on a normally inactive signal to trigger the e-stop. just like you should NOT have a "make" type e-stop rather than a "break" config. because if you have a bad connection you don't know about it until its too late.

if the Masso fails in some unpredictable way and it fails to issue the E-stop output or there is an Open Circuit on the brake wire then you could be in trouble.

Yeah I know what you mean. I use automation processors for work so I understand the idea of a mechanical redundancy when the programmed logic fails. You need them for suresure it comes to safety. I thought of a few ways to do it but ultimately a contactor will be the safest if the spindle slows fast enough.

My Z axis has a brake that when not energised actually pres pressure on a metal plate connected to the axis shaft, when Masso boots up, it energises and allows it to move freely. It's just spring loaded but certainly works. Not sure how that could help here but is a great safety method to stop it winding down into the table when off. These HSDs are so dam heavy.

Mine's only 3.8kw but is plenty for me.

How old is the machine? Are you doing a refurb for a customer?

yeah heavy! though the spindle for my own personal machine build is quiet a bit heavier! but its for heavy milling - 60kg! but thats off topic! The bearings in the HSD are smooth as silk!! maybe ceramic I don't know but it has already done a fair amount of work.

the machine is about 2007 I think but I am not sure exactly. its been sitting for 5 year because the customer gave up trying to repair the Centroid electronics. not a full refurb...just the electronics and a clean up of the other moving parts. some of the bearings are a bit rough but they will probably run for years like that.

I could make something but I am not budgeting for any extra engineering. that brake sounds interesting though. The Z on this is belt driven and the old DC servos seemed to have enough stiction to stop it dropping. I hope with the new hybrid steppers that is also the case. hmmm might be a problem, since the servos had brushes which may have had enough friction. these steppers have only magnetic friction which will not hold long. since it is a router that does very little Z movement i could add a spring loaded shaft clamp that is always engaged - stepper would easily overcome it and made from the right material would last for years!!! thanks for the tip!

 

[lpnb]

Quote from TayloredTech on November 6, 2018, 11:42 am

Quote from lpnb on November 6, 2018, 10:50 am

Quote from TayloredTech on November 6, 2018, 9:04 am

There are spindle alarm inputs which will trigger warning outputs which you can writ to lights or another relay but they do pulse on and off when triggered.

What I mean is, can the E-stop output go into fault condition without the e-stop input triggering it.?

I could be wrong but my understanding is there is no dedicated E-stop output. More warning and error light outputs. Those can be triggered by all sorts of alarm inputs and hard/ soft limits etc..

It would be a good thing to add into "feature requests" So you can activate a NC relay to open instantly so the contactor breaks

what about relay output number 7? isn't that what that is.? from what I read it is not even re-programmable to any other function???

 

[tayloredtech]

Quote from lpnb on November 6, 2018, 12:01 pm

Quote from TayloredTech on November 6, 2018, 11:42 am

Quote from lpnb on November 6, 2018, 10:50 am

Quote from TayloredTech on November 6, 2018, 9:04 am

There are spindle alarm inputs which will trigger warning outputs which you can writ to lights or another relay but they do pulse on and off when triggered.

What I mean is, can the E-stop output go into fault condition without the e-stop input triggering it.?

I could be wrong but my understanding is there is no dedicated E-stop output. More warning and error light outputs. Those can be triggered by all sorts of alarm inputs and hard/ soft limits etc..

It would be a good thing to add into "feature requests" So you can activate a NC relay to open instantly so the contactor breaks

what about relay output number 7? isn't that what that is.? from what I read it is not even re-programmable to any other function???

Oh yeah! Perfect. Forgot about that one. 7 will sink to ground on E-stop. I think in the end it's going to come down to trial and error and what you think is safest really.

In my experience if its for a customer, bring it back to what they expect so you can get paid then tell them there is options to do more after you get bank ??.

Where are you based anyway?

 

[lpnb]

Oh yeah! Perfect. Forgot about that one. 7 will sink to ground on E-stop. I think in the end it's going to come down to trial and error and what you think is safest really.

In my experience if its for a customer, bring it back to what they expect so you can get paid then tell them there is options to do more after you get bank

.

Where are you based anyway?

Ha yeah! true. but being my first one and also an exercise in "paid" learning , I'm trying to reach a nice balance.

 

[masso-support]

just saw this topic, so from our side what option will be helpful with your setup and we can have a look at implementing it.

 

[lpnb]

By the way I didn't answer - I am based in Newcastle.

 

[tayloredtech]

Quote from lpnb on November 7, 2018, 7:29 am

By the way I didn't answer - I am based in Newcastle.

Oh awesome, I'm in Sydney but my machine and workshop is on the Central Coast just out of Avoca Beach. Might be good to stay in touch as we are both using similar sized machines.

Here is my machine we have just got back up to speed.

Mitch.

 

[lpnb]

Quote from MASSO - Support on November 7, 2018, 6:03 am

just saw this topic, so from our side what option will be helpful with your setup and we can have a look at implementing it.

Thanks the the message. Nothing really that would help. still nutting though all the external circuitry (all 24vac)

I'm sure there will be something later.

 

[lpnb]

Quote from MASSO - Support on November 7, 2018, 6:03 am

just saw this topic, so from our side what option will be helpful with your setup and we can have a look at implementing it.

Dear Masso, I have an Issue regarding the tool changer

My spindle has two sensors : tool locked and tool ejected.

I believe this is so that you can monitor whether the tool holder has actually clamped in place and also stop the spindle if the tool becomes loose while running. The idea being that if the tool is not correctly clamped that the system will know about it.

Please see attached.

Can this be integrated? Or will I have to Just monitor the tool ejected signal and invert it? because tool locked will have no output change if there is no tool in place.

Thanks

Lach