High Speed Rotary Tool Changer

[testyourdesign]

I can't find information or documentation on the High-Speed Rotary Tool Changer Option. How does the high-speed rotary tool changer option differ from a linear or umbrella tool changer? Is there any difference to the logic or IO?

Cheers, Stephen Brown

 

[masso-support]

we are working on the new documentation platform with PDF printing option, once that is released please message us and we will add logic flow diagrams for tool changers to the documentation.

 

[unlockedcomposites]

bump

 

[unlockedcomposites]

Do we have anything beyond crickets for the high speed rotary tool changer option?

I know, I know "use the umbrella tool changer". Honestly the umbrella tool changer seems to be best fit for retrofitting older machines that have geneva drives. The moment we start assigning On and Off outputs to a external third party board that is set with an analog potentiometer is the moment that i think we are taking a large step back and are not using the tools at hand.

I am in no way minimizing MASSO's other efforts, but this does not even live up to Masso's own standards that they have set. Please let us know what is going on with this option. In the threads i read it seems the easiest way to kill the conversation is to ask about this feature. Spent a while looking for info on The HSRTC(its a pain to retype all the time), and found nothing of value to move forward one iota.

What are the limitations to having a stepper or hybrid stepper hooked to a carousel and using that as a HSRTC?

I would be willing to sacrifice an entire axis of the machine (from a 4 axis capable to a 3 axis machine with HSRTC capability)

I could Frankenstein a post and make the machine use the extra axis to accomplish this, but i have 4 more machines to build and I chose Masso so i would not have to Frankenstein anything together. I really want to understand where the hold up or snag is for further implementation.

How can we help?

-Travis

 

[unlockedcomposites]

@breezy any thoughts? not trying to put you on the spot but is there any info on this?

 

[unlockedcomposites]

@zombieengineer do you know anything about the history of that feature?

 

[cncnutz]

Followed this up for you today and have created an entry in the documentation for this tool changer.

High Speed Tool Changer

docs.masso.com.au

If your tool changer is similar to this we would really like to hear from you.
The Tool changer was started for a client who stopped responding so it was not able to be completed.
We need to work with someone who has this tool changer to complete the logic and testing.
If it is not this style of tool changer then it will not work for you.

My understanding is that you have an umbrella style tool changer and want to use a stepper motor.
This is being added to the tool change logic and will be one of several updates to tool changer logic being made.
I believe it will be done as part of a Beta release but have no information on when.

Cheers Peter

 

[unlockedcomposites]

@cncnutz Thankyou for explaining this, I appreciate your willingness to shed light on this. I do not have an umbrella changer on the machine I am currently building(2nd masso build, 4 to go).
Currently the machine is pick and place tool change. I would like to maximize tools in the machine while sacrificing less area for tools.

I have 4 more machines to build this way and can think of no simpler way of integration than to have a servo/ stepper controlled carousel.

I look forward to to the ability to use a closed loop stepper or servo to control a carousel, if Masso needs someone to be a Guinea Pig I am willing. Please advise the best way to initiate that contact.

the current version of the umbrella seems adequate for older retrofits, but I believe the ability to control the motor with more than a gas and brake pedal is not utilizing the tools at hand for this application. I think many would prefer to use a carousel that can be nimble, locationally accurate and only needs a homing switch, even if it means sacrificing a 4th or 5th axis capability.

it seems (from the outside looking in) that the easiest way to accomplish this is to allow the 4th or 5th axis to be used for that ability. Maybe have the ability to program the positions very much like tool changer type 2 has the ability for the user to input X and Y Coodinates.
the User could:

• define the Z height for all tools
• Tell the controller what axis's that would be used for the toolchanger (ex. X and Y, X and A, Y and A, Y and B, Etc.)
• then have fields below for locations of said axis' corelating to the tool as it is currently in type 2

This may be able to slot into that same format as linear toolchanger type 2. just with a new name and a dropdown menu to select the axis' desired.

also generates more revenue for MASSO by more people choosing feature upgrades to control a 4th or 5th stepper or servo.

Take my $$$!

 

[zombieengineer]

@unlockedcomposites - Please excuse my limited understanding of your problem (I had a long week with interrupted sleep).

I believe the umbrella tool changer does not fit your requirements as it has a single digital output ("Rotate Tools Tray") and two digital inputs ("Homing Sensor" and "Pulse Counter Sensor").

Option #1:
If the "Rotate Tools Tray" output could be replaced with "Pulsed X times at Y pulses a second" to advance a slot without the need for a "Pulse Counter Sensor" - would this solve your problem?

Option #2:
If the "Rotate Tools Tray" output could be replaced with "Pulsed at Y pulses a second" to advance a slot until the "Pulse Counter Sensor" is activated - would this solve your problem?

I am trying to understand the minimum set of changes required to support a stepper motor in lieu of DC motor (or equivalent).

A servo motor could be configured to act like a DC motor and possibly send the index and slot pulses as required (*rolls eyes at how configurable some servo motors have become these days*). You may be able to implement your requirements by appropriate configuration of a servo motor with the current MASSO software, happy to explain if required.

 

[cncnutz]

@unlockedcomposites
The best option for testing new software is to become a Beta tester.
That way you will be advised of new Beta versions as they are released, can test and see if they are suitable for your application.

Cheers Peter

 

[unlockedcomposites]

@unlockedcomposites - Please excuse my limited understanding of your problem (I had a long week with interrupted sleep).

I believe the umbrella tool changer does not fit your requirements as it has a single digital output ("Rotate Tools Tray") and two digital inputs ("Homing Sensor" and "Pulse Counter Sensor").

Option #1:
If the "Rotate Tools Tray" output could be replaced with "Pulsed X times at Y pulses a second" to advance a slot without the need for a "Pulse Counter Sensor" - would this solve your problem?

Option #2:
If the "Rotate Tools Tray" output could be replaced with "Pulsed at Y pulses a second" to advance a slot until the "Pulse Counter Sensor" is activated - would this solve your problem?

I am trying to understand the minimum set of changes required to support a stepper motor in lieu of DC motor (or equivalent).

A servo motor could be configured to act like a DC motor and possibly send the index and slot pulses as required (*rolls eyes at how configurable some servo motors have become these days*). You may be able to implement your requirements by appropriate configuration of a servo motor with the current MASSO software, happy to explain if required.

I would like to circumvent all of the pulse counting in exchange for a positional controllable servo/stepper. Counting pulses is the way of old machinery and introduces more variables to go wrong I believe. If my spindle grabs an incorrect tool and spins it to its max rpm of 50k it will be catastrophic and expensive. we have affordable positional controllable steppers and servos, if that could be used it would negate building all the extra needed for pulse counting and it would be able to command its position rather than Ray Charlesing its way around counting pulses.

No worries on being sleep deprived, I completely understand. this is the way.


Option 1 and 2 i believe are not ideal for me, I have 4 more of these builds and i would rather not build it the way they did with Geneva drives. I've been reading through the implementations of the umbrella changer and it is just more of the old style of changer logic.

@cncnutz I believe I am a beta tester already and can run beta software, I am running one currently on beta(need to update it). other than hoping for a dialog in this here, what else is the best way to contact the devs to se what they think?

 

[zombieengineer]

After a quick nap - I think you are looking for option #1

I think many would prefer to use a carousel that can be nimble, locationally accurate and only needs a homing switch, even if it means sacrificing a 4th or 5th axis capability.

Your requirements differ from the standard umbrella logic in that it would only require a single position sensor (the homing sensor)

Option #1:
If the "Rotate Tools Tray" output could be replaced with "Pulsed X times at Y pulses a second" to advance a slot without the need for a "Pulse Counter Sensor" - would this solve your problem?

I suspect I was not clear here - the "Pulsed X times as Y pulses a second" was use the "Rotate Tools Tray" output as a step command for a stepper / servo motor. Where X is the number of steps between tool positions and Y is how fast it needs to move (steps/second), MASSO may need to include an acceleration term in there as well.

Potential complications - bidirectional movement (would require an additional output for stepper/servo motor direction). Some systems may only support unidirectional travel (backlash in a carrier chain could make it impossible to reverse the direction).

 

[unlockedcomposites]

@zombieengineer @cncnutz
You are so much more elegantly versed in electrical diction than I. I tell my electrical engineer system integrator friend many times that I am merely a caveman learning the many ways to move electrons around.

I understand that it could solve the problem, in the way that it would allow a rotary to be used in the machine with a stepper or servo. That would work...

Bidirectional would be ideal so that unnecessary movements are taken out of the equation (ex if it has to go from t2 to t1 it will have to cycle through 29 tools rather than moving back 1). The way the umbrella logic is now implemented i think still leaves room to improve. If an umbrella or rotary tool changer had a better grasp of where it was and was treated as an axis rather than only a singular unidirectional motion abled feature, I think that would allow for a better implementation and control of the process. I am close to frankenstiening my gcode and post to make it happen. BUT! If Masso would add this ability I thing that many people would prefer it and take advantage of it. Especially if it reduces possible downsides like stacking error within the control (similar to the tool touchoff stacking error that just got solved in the latest update) and moves away form using the logic which is best suited to the older style of tool changers with non locating motors and geneva drives. I have a diagram for the menu that I made up. Not sure how the code is on the back end. also would be nice to have it work with angular axis option unless the axis just gets setup with 360 measurement units units per full rotation to simplify it for now. this modified menu is based off of Tool changer type 2.

 

[unlockedcomposites]

I think that this may not be as crazy of an implementation, most of it seems to work with the type two logic. if the specific locations are able to be called out. this would allow for pick and place type tool change to be used on a rotary in a manner that allows more than a single row on the rotary(Denser tool storage). option toggle from the umbrella logic called "Move tools tray" and "Move axis torwards tool tray" would round out the feature.

This solves many of my space issues and logic issues on the next 4 machines. i feel it would also aid others in adding tool changer capabilities to their builds.

I do know that in some cases there are memory limitations and such on the controller, I do not know how much this impacts that. I am motivated to having a productive conversation with someone who is on the backside of the logic. Been using masso for 2 years now and have 2 machines that now run everyday for my business. I have 4 more machines to build and this is my main sticking point to solve moving forward.

I cannot imagine a more robust and modern umbrella/rotary tool changer option would go under appreciated by masso users.

 

[zombieengineer]

@unlockedcomposites - Take plenty of photos, draw up a flow chart of the expected steps showing how and when MASSO would send and receive signals from your tool changer, including any wait for feedback (with suggested time outs) and e-mail support (at) masso.com.au

Sequences are very hard to convey in a written format (I deal with equipment start-up sequences with my day job of operator training simulators) and the clearer you make it, the easier it will be to get a tool changer system that works for your machine implemented.

 

[unlockedcomposites]

Thankyou!

 

[cncnutz]

@cncnutz I believe I am a beta tester already and can run beta software, I am running one currently on beta(need to update it). other than hoping for a dialog in this here, what else is the best way to contact the devs to se what they think?

To request a custom tool changer logic you need to email MASSO support.
You would need to provide as much detail about your tool changer as possible.
Manuals if you have them,
The required logic to make it work. This includes inputs, outputs and timing sequences
Photos & Video of how it was working previously can be a big help in understanding the nature of the tool changer if you have it.
There may be video's on youtube you can link too showing your tool changer.
Hope this helps
Cheers Peter