Is there a problem with Plasma 5 axis v4.01 ?

[segoman-designs]

@breezy

Something has changed, what use to work no longer works. the signal is being sent from the THC unit to Raise / Lower the torch but the G3 is not responding . I am 12V input voltage with 5.6K resistors is 5.6K compatible with both 12V & 24V input voltages?

When will V4.03 upgrade be out?

Thx. Mate

 

[breezy]

@segoman-designs

The only difference between using a 5.6k resistor and 12 & 24 volts is the amount current that will flow into the input is half for 12v compared to 24v.

Could you do the tests laid out for inputs 1 - 24 in this document. https://docs.masso.com.au/replacing-damaged-optocouplers-G3

When will V4.03 upgrade be out?

Soon, we are currently alpha testing the many changes made to create v4.03, also some beta testing is being done on fixes for faults reported by those users.

Regards,

Arie.

 

[segoman-designs]

@breezy,

Would it be possible For Dingo(Lilow) & I to get a Beta on V4.03?

The last V3.47 worked fine until I upgraded to V4.01. I just double checked screenshots and settings between the two, all settings are identical.

 

[lilow]

Thanks SegoMan DeSigns.

These people won't listen to me.

There has been a change to the signal input for the THC 1-2.

From v3.46.1 on.

It seems to noticeable when running 12v for the Masso PS.

I have set aside 4 days now to trial everything I know, and then disregard all I had to do to get a simple THC to work with G3 v3.46.1.

Those using 24v will never experience anything.

Those using 12v will have problems with the negative 5K6 resistors to the THC inputs.

I will soon know.

Maybe they should have been 2K7.

Cheers.

 

[lilow]

Breezy.

The only difference between using a 5.6k resistor and 12 & 24 volts is the amount current that will flow into the input is half for 12v compared to 24v..

Don't you mean the voltage ?

Now 12v is working with 5K6, it produces 7.08v for the inputs to the THC1-2.

When working with a reaction of between high and low of 0.003v.

This will be seen as 0.03v when in actual use.

The voltage supplied to the inputs in simulation mode is 7.08v.

With running the THC while cutting, this voltage runs at 4.8 and 5.1v respectively between the Up / Down signal.

This is measured by 2 multi metres.

As you guys have never used a Plasma, you will never understand.

Even Masso.

With v3.46.1, everything worked.

All advise I had been given back last year was use 5K6 negative trigger.

So now I will ask, where is the answer ?

I think I may have been lucky to get this THC working for the last 12 months.

Now is a positive trigger or negative to work with ?

Cheers.

 

[breezy]

Lilow,

The only difference between using a 5.6k resistor and 12 & 24 volts is the amount current that will flow into the input is half for 12v compared to 24v..

Don't you mean the voltage ?

No, I mean current!

If you have 12v across a 5.6k resistor the maximum current that can flow through that resistor is I=V/R ie 12/5.6k = 2.14mA whereas 24/5.6k = 4.28mA. Voltage = pressure so with 12v you have half the pressure to push current through the resistor. Now if you take the forward voltage drop (1.4v) across the optocoupler input diode into account the figures change to 1.89mA and 4.03mA. This doesn't take into account the components in the input circuitry of the MASSO input.

Now looking at the datasheet for LTV-816 DC Input Transistor Output Optocoupler https://docs.rs-online.com/b539/0900766b80de4a4d.pdf

CTR at 2mA = 100% and 4mA = 130% where CTR (Current Transfer Ratio) = Ic/If * 100% where Ic is output current and If is input current.

Therefore switching 12v through 5.6k puts you at the low end of the specs and you are pushing ** up a hill.

That is why we recommend you wire inputs with pull up resistors and switch to -ve, that way logic low has full 12/24v applied to MASSO input circuitry and is pulled to ground to create logic high.

Regards,

Arie.

 

[lilow]

Thanks Breezy.

By using 12v with 5K6 resistors, I was pushing it very well up a hill with v3.46.1.

By going to v4.01, it couldn't push it anywhere.

I going to try 2K7 resistors for a result today.

I have already run 2 volt meters to monitor the THC 1 / 2 readings while the Plasma is in operation.

I figured there was a need for a slightly higher triggering voltage than what the THC 1 / 2 readings showed.

With a simulated run, the voltage read 7.08v. ( adjusted by hand )

When the machine / plasma is running thje THC 1 / 2 volt meters read 4.8 and 5.1v respectively between the Up / Down signal.

This was in v3.46.1 mode. ( perfect operation )

With v4.01 loaded, the Masso would only see the 5.1v and raise the THC.

Thank you for your input, now we may get ahead of this glitch.

But it still doesn't answer the question of why the difference between the v3.46.1 and the v4.01 software operation.

Cheers.

 

[lilow]

Well Breezy.

We have finally nailed it.

I changed the resistors from 5K6 to 2K7.

Loaded v4.01, reset THC 1 to input 2, THC2 to input 3.

All the the other configurations were in the correct order.

Now I am back to the perfect cutting I have had for the past 12 months.

You may want to change the documentation to include the use of 2K7 resistors when using a 12v PS to Masso.

My THC1 is set to downwards movement, the THC 2 is set to an upward movement.

Below is a short video of the 2 multi meters connected to THC1 / THC2.

A screen shot of the F1 screen included.

Cheers and thanks from LILOW.

 

[lilow]

Now after getting this THC working in v4.01.

I believe I have been given a lot of false information last year.

I may have been lucky to get this unknown THC working with v3.46.1.

But to load v4.01, there had to be changes made to the internal workings of Masso.

You just can't go to nothing just from an update of software.

However, I will never get an explanation as to why.

Best thing is I can now move on with some orders until the next update.

Suggestion for Masso, please update your support base as some use 12v.

Get the M8 icon working again as I don't want to have to track down problems in the future.

You have spare F2 space in the screen, condense them down and give us more options.

When Breezy last night confirmed my thoughts about the triggering the Up / Downs, it only took 25 minutes today to change the resistors and have it working perfectly again.

Breezy and Peter / cncNutz do a great job of advise when working remotely for your particular situation.

But because of the non involvement in the industry, they cannot comment to the degree that you may want.

They can only give you thoughts as to overcome a situation.

The knowledge comes from the involvement created from many years.

They will give enough information for users to go, look and learn.

Cheers, now back in business with v4.01 working.

Lilow.

 

[lilow]

Done.

 

[cncnutz]

Congratulations on getting it going.

Can you confirm where the resistors that you changed are physically located.

• Are they directly on MASSO's input terminals?
  
• Or are they on your comparator board at the end on a piece of cable. If so how long is the cable?
  Are you also sending both +12v and GND from MASSO power supply to your unit?
  

Regards Peter

 

[jcoldon]

So how long before the arc ok loss. does all stop is fixed ??

 

[lilow]

Peter.

In reply to your questions below.

I am still using the same wiring configuration that has been used for the last 12 months.

I will change this to only a M3 / M5 is used.

I will also change the way the Arc OK is set in F1 screen.

Cheers.

Can you confirm where the resistors that you changed are physically located.

A pdf supplied.

• Are they directly on MASSO's input terminals?
  
• No, the resistors are on the output side of the comparator board.
  
• Or are they on your comparator board at the end on a piece of cable. If so how long is the cable?
  
• The cable from the Masso to the board is around 200mm long.
  Are you also sending both +12v and GND from MASSO power supply to your unit?
  
• The Masso +12 and GND are used.
  
  

 

[segoman-designs]

@masso-support

Build a frigin' plaz table already!

You claim to sell a working plaz controller but you don't have one to try it and your upgrades on..

The can stops here..

Stop marketing this as a working plaz controller until you do.

Your mistakes are costing a lot of people lost time and production.

 

[cncnutz]

Thanks for the details Lilow

I had wondered if the cable between your unit and MASSO was long in which case the added resistance, capacitance and inductance may have altered the optocouple input characteristics but 200mm is too short to cause this. It is almost as if the Ground voltage is shifting when the plasma arc starts and decreasing the resistance value is enough to overcome this. The fact that it tests good when using 5K6 resistors and a manual signal makes me think that noise is getting into the output and the lower resistance is overcoming this, but this should not happen as the isolation provided by the relays, short cable length, resistor strategy and optocouple input all work to prevent this.
The Proma 150 uses exactly the same output circuit as yours does and has no problem with using 5.6K of resistance.

What power supply are you using to power the DT115 board itself?
I know it will be 12 volts as that is what the board requires. I'm just wondering if it is fully isolated from MASSO ground.
It's hard to tell these days as some earth the -ve rail of the power supply and some are double insulated and do not earth the power supply output at all

Regards Peter

 

[lilow]

Peter.

I'm not going anywhere near the application of the Proma.

When I had trouble when I installed v4.01.

Upon your recommendation, I went and installed every update into the G3.

From v3.46.1, in every installation the THC would not work.

Breezy hit the nail on the head with his post around #68.

Volts is pressure, amps is flow.

Myself and Sergoman Design were working on the limit of the 12v power to the Masso to a G3 using the 5K6 resistors.

It was something I have been mulling over for the last few weeks.

The trigger values to trigger had to be around 4mA. (Breezy's evaluation)

With the division of 12v divided by 5K6 equals around 2.42mA.

This with a low voltage and the precise close activation caused the problems when I uploaded to v4.01.

But why did it work with v3.46.1 ?????

Even though the voltage in simulated mode would show 7.08v.

The working voltage is so much lower due to the fact of the close relationship to 0.003v between the Up / Down signals.

When working, this showed up by using 2 multi metres on the THC1/2 inputs.

By replacing the resistors with 2K7, it increases the voltage in simulated mode to just over 8V and around 4.4444mA.

This was enough to trigger the THC inputs in v4.01.

Cheers, the Dingo had a win.

 

[lilow]

Is this forum a place to have a look at and have a say on anything that comes to mind about what is put up you can't work out.

I, like everyone has difficulties working out why things won't work.

I'd like to see comments from the 1200 that have looked.

It is where you can have a say.

Cheers.

 

[evermech]

@lilow

well here's a couple of reasons why most people probably won't comment on this thread.

First of all the level of technical difficulty is very advanced ( well over my abilities ) so not going to be any help commenting about things we don't know about.

Secondly nobody wants to get involved with the ongoing battle between you and your followers and Masso. Even Masso doesn't want to be involved in the controversy. In my opinion now that I'm asked, I think that you are being too hard on Masso. I'm under the understanding that there are working examples of plasma cutters in use with Masso controllers on them. They may not be perfect but they are functional. I also think that we are lucky to be able to even suggest how or what we would like Masso to develop moving forward, try that with a big brand cnc manufacturer

BTW I read every post every day on this forum and follow all of the topics. I am familiar with your journey and appreciate the difficulty in it. I also think that you have a marketable product.

Cheers Guy

.

 

[segoman-designs]

@evermech,

Thanks for joining in the conversation.

I'm not sure how far back you have read on the THC topic, but you will find statements by Masso of a soon to be released THC.. That was over 2 years ago and it's still a no go! To build a CNC plaz controller requires a vast amount of knowledge of how the system works, while one can say we understand the concept it is just theories until you make the sparks fly and control them properly. This in my "not so humble opinion" requires an in house system to work with.

Masso does not have one. There are many unanswered questions through out the years by Masso on the THC topic. Ross has done a great job of integrating the Proma into his system and helping others do the same. Proma was not an option for me as my plaz box is about 8' away from the controller and I wanted on the fly control at the console.

Price was my first choice as it has so many positive reviews on forums like P-Spider so I actually roughed in the space needed to mount it during the console build. Fast forward people were unable to get it to work as well as many other units with the Masso.

Along comes a rabid Dingo called Lilow, he has tried a lot of the units out there and documented his testing procedure on the forum. They too were not working in the Masso architecture. Things that make you go Hmm!

He at his own cost did the R&D to build his own system with little help from Masso. I was fortunate enough to get the opportunity to verify that his system works and integrate it into my build. It works great! I could go on but I got work to go to like others on here which have trouble finding time to post their comments.

 

[lilow]

Thanks @evermech.

Your comment is appreciated.

Cheers.