Mill Spindle and Brake control

[airnut]

Support,


Arie,


By all means, Here you go. Please, that would be very helpful to all I am sure.


Regards,


Steve



Hi Steve,

?

The Clamp function is for use with lathe chucks or spindle tool release not spindle brake.

Spindle brakes should be hard wired through NC contacts on the CW & CCW relays so that when a spindle start command is issued the brake is released. You can add a panel switch is series with this circuit to release the brake manually. I would added an extra contact set in the switch that would feed a signal back to MASSO as a spindle fault alarm. Also a NO emergency stop contact could be placed around all this to operate the brake if Estop is pressed. You may need to use a delay relay to operate the brake so that the spindle has time to spin down before the brake is applied.

?

If you would like to take this to the forum I can supply a wiring diagram that will be of use to other members who have similar equipment.



Please let us know if you do, so I can prepare a diagram.

Arie







Arie,

Thanks for getting back. That helps a lot.

Here is another one I desperately need help on.

Tying to figure out the Clamp function and what activates it internally in the Masso. M10 / M11 is what it says in the manual is how to call it from the program. I assume this works already though have not run a program yet. Which begs the question of how I am to use it in the program with tool change or spindle off etc.

I can get a signal to the Masso relay block by using the input and inverting the signal. but at the present I have nothing wired to is as a external switch. I need to know the routine built into the Masso, if it is called automatically when a tool change is called (M6) or spindle stop is commanded or e-stop etc. It doesn't seem to be now, How does it normally work?

My machine has a air operated brake which stops and locks the spindle for manual tool change. This is controlled by a air valve which is a 110V coil. I am turning this on with a Masso relay module driving a solid state relay. That works well and it locks the spindle tight. Problem is when it is locked there is no interlock preventing the spindle from being turned on.

In as much as I will be doing manual tool changes on this machine I am thinking it may be good to use a panel switch to activate/ deactivate the brake, or actually it should be already on when a any motor stop is commanded.?

I assume a panel switch would be attached to the input signal. This could also be used to turn it off so the spindle could be manually rotated for set up things.

I guess I do not understand how a switch relates to the M10 / M11 codes and the code in Masso.

I could not find any thing in the docs or forum on this in detail.

What would you suggest?

Regards,

Steve


On 8/19/2020 1:31 AM, MASSO Support wrote:

Hi Steve ,

High /Low range you can use M64/65 commands in your G code to control and if you use AUX 1 output you can switch it from a button on the MDI window. but at the moment we don't have a programmable input that will be suitable for a external switch.

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Thank you for the feedback on the F1 sign in requirement, this hopefully will be implemented in the upcoming software update.

Arie




Thanks,

MASSO Support

Support,
I am finishing up my build and find the Masso wonderful, I love it . So much so that I just ordered another one for my other machine.

On this build I have a spindle which is not controlled with a VFD. It is however controlled with a couple of solenoids. I am planning to drive the high voltage CW and CCW motor solenoids with the Masso relay board controlled by pins 2 and 3 on the spindle output. Is this acceptable.

There also is a high and low range selector which is air operated. I find no provision for supporting this.

I need to have an input for a panel mount selector switch and output designated as high / low range. It would seem this would be fairly easy to add along with a corresponding M code call for use within a program when necessary. Or perhaps you could suggest a work around for this.

And lastly,

FYI, It is quite annoying to be forced to use the mouse to select the password box when I first select my F1 key after logging in. I can understand that the password box should come up automatically as it does with the first access to the F1 screen to protect our settings, but, the cursor should also position itself in the box for keyboard input as it does on the home screen, which it does not now do. Should be another easy fix that would make life a little better when we are setting these up. I probably have been into this screen 50 times so far and every time this jumps out at me and slows me down.

Your doing great.

Regards.

Steve

 

[cncnutz]

Hi Steve,

In terms of how the Chuck clamp works there are 3 parts to it.

1. You can configure an output as an Chuck Clamp M10/M11 and connect a relay or SSR to it. This is used to open and close the chuck clamp as the name implies. Also used for spindle drawbars.
   
2. M10/M11 This is the Gcode used the turn on and off the output you designate as the Chuck Clamp M10/M11. The command can be call issues from Gcode, MDI or using the Clamp on and Clamp off buttons on the MDI screen.
   
3. An input can be assigned as a Chuck Clamp Unclamp Button which you wire out as shown below. When this button is pressed the chuck clamp will release and when the button is released it will close the clamp when making a manual tool change. Think of it as pressing the button sends an M10 to Masso and releasing it sends an M11 command.
   

Important:
The Chuck clamp output will not operate while the spindle is turned on for obvious reasons. When you are using an M6 command for manual tool change it will not automatically release the chuck clamp and it is important to issue an M5 before the M6 command or the Chuck Clamp will not work. If you do not issue an M5 neither the Gcode commands M10/M11 , the screen push buttons and the external switch will not work.

Hope this helps
Cheers
Peter

 

[airnut]

Peter,

Sorry for the backwards feed on this post. Its a bit confusing as I read it again. I should have started coping from the last to the first instead of the way I did it. Anyway, these functions are all interrelated in a way as they address how the manual control corelates to the input and outputs on the Masso.

Your quote "Think of it as pressing the button sends an M10 to Masso and releasing it sends an M11 command."

T hank you for this. That clarifies a lot in my understanding of how these commands are interpreted in the Masso. My understanding also is the M Codes are "Model" until the other opposing one is turned on. That function is built into the control software. That is to say; they stay turned on. Correct? Otherwise I would have to stand there with my finger on the button.

Arie said above that I could use a M64/M65 code for the spindle shift with an AUX 1 output to drive the relay board. I don't seem to have these features identified on my machine. Is that something new in the software?

I think a manual switch for the shift function will work as a work around Ok, at least for the short haul. but a switch input for the spindle shifter and corresponding output would bring that into a more useful state. Hope that is coming soon. This Shizooka is like most Bridgeport Mills with the low / high manual shifter and a hand brake, but in this case they have already been converted to air driven program compatible functions, so I want to keep all the features.

Thanks for the post and assistance.

BTW, Thanks for the Videos, they are great!

Best regards,

Steve

 

[cncnutz]

Hi Steve,

The Chuck Clamp button input will only hold the relay on while the button is pressed and as soon as you release it the relay will release.
In terms of tool changing it means press the button, remove the tool and release the button
Get the new tool, press the button and insert the tool and release the button.

If you feel the need to have the Chuck clamp on for the entire tool change then use a toggle switch instead.

With regards using the M10/M11 Gcode is MDI of your Gcode files the issuing an M10 will remain in that state unit cancelled by an M11 or the external Chuck Clamp input button.
That particular button is one of a kind on Masso and is the only one that behaves like that.

In the case of M64 the output will remain active until cancelled by the corresponding M65.

Glad the videos help
Cheers Peter

 

[breezy]

Steve,

Excuse the chicken scratchings of a drawing, but I wanted to get it done quickly and not spend hours on a drawing package.

Hope it makes sense.

Regards,

Arie.

 

[evermech]

So just to confirm, Peter, when using the M10/ M11 codes which are designated as tool clamp/ unclamp Masso automatically interlocks that to the spindle outputs. That's why you need the M5 so Masso knows the spindle isn't running?

if this is how it works then I wouldn't add anything as an interlock device. If this is not how it works then I would just use a relay with two,sets of contacts, one set open when the other set closes so when the spindle is running its contacts are closed, the other set of contacts which would enable the tool change are open so no matter if you push the button it can't complete the circuit until the motor is off.

Guy

 

[airnut]

Thanks for the Diagram Arie.

That's a cute trick to use the relay in pairs. I can see where you are going with this one I hope I can make any intelligent reply.

Going back to what you said about the Definition of things. The Tool Clamp is not the same thing as the Spindle brake. I think we need to define what each does and what should and does happen at the time the command is issued.

I should clarify, this is for a machine which does not have a VFD or PMW motor controller. It does have a tool clamp function and some push buttons for tool in and out which is accomplished by a electric impact tool and a air cylinder. It does not have an automatic tool changer. If you were to engage the tool clamp the tool would drop out of the spindle only with a button push to activate the impact tool and draw bar. This is why it is a good idea to be sure the spindle is braked at that time.

In normal operation with spindle stopped and locked I simply grab the tool holder and hit the button. Swap out the holders and hit the load button.

In this case, after the clarification above. I don't see any need to use the Tool Clamp program calls for anything to do with the clamp function. My guess is that would only be done with a tool changer. With the exception that the existing set up does have some old electronics standing alone doing all that and I may want to somehow incorporate it into the Masso at some future point.

Spindle Brake. Stops the spindle from turning for (1.) Safety in the case of E-Stop. (2.) Saves time on spindle winding down during a tool change or end of program. (3.) Brakes the spindle for a tool change operation.

So to step back, what we have is; it should be locked when either motor CW and CCW is not on. We should also have an (NC side Switch) which will disable the brake so it could be used by hand to say tram something or position a fly cutter or the like. It should also have a lamp on the switch which would indicate a inactive brake when the button is pushed.

This is how I see it. We can use the normally closed points on the Masso Relay module related to the CW and CCW feed to turn on the brake SSR. This will require using low voltage DC to drive two SSRs for the Forward and Reverse rotations instead of direct to the solenoids . I don't think this is a bad thing though because it isolates the coils for feed back spikes.

If we feed a double pole switch on the Machine side with a lead from each Masso relay and tie the other side of the switch together and to the Brake SSR we have it done. If that switch has a NO and NC function we can also use the internal light function on those poles to indicate a Brake off condition.

With this set up the Brake will automatically act inverse with the motor activation. When we do an E-stop, or turn off the spindle the motor circuit automatically drops out internally in Masso anyway. One thing I don't know is if the Masso also drops the spindle automatically for a tool change command, which it should. Does that make any sense?

I am installing this now and will advise the results and also do a drawing when it works well.

(BTW, in the way of suggestion for improvement. We should have a 3rd option on the spindle drive select screen in F1, for manual or external speed control. This would make things easier and also remove a few questions and frustrations.)

Regards,

Steve

 

[cncnutz]

Quote from evermech on August 22, 2020, 12:29 am

So just to confirm, Peter, when using the M10/ M11 codes which are designated as tool clamp/ unclamp Masso automatically interlocks that to the spindle outputs. That's why you need the M5 so Masso knows the spindle isn't running?

if this is how it works then I wouldn't add anything as an interlock device. If this is not how it works then I would just use a relay with two,sets of contacts, one set open when the other set closes so when the spindle is running its contacts are closed, the other set of contacts which would enable the tool change are open so no matter if you push the button it can't complete the circuit until the motor is off.

Guy

I thought I would double check by running a couple of tests in case some changes had been make.
The Chuck Clamp is locked out and cannot be opened when the spindle is on. Make sure your spin down time is long enough so it is not still winding down.

You can easily test by not inserting a tool, start it running and them try the Chuck Clamp button and see if it operates. This is basically what i did no my setup though I just had the output operate a light as I don't have an auto tool change spindle.

The change that I found is that it no longer needs the M5 before the M6 tool change command for it to work. In older software versions the M6 would stop the spindle but the spindle would still show as on and the clamp would not work. This is not good for an auto tool changer which does not monitor the chuck clamp status. I tries to drop off the old tool destroying the tool holder tynes in the process and then would get really bad. It seems it has now changed so that the M6 turns off the spindle without the M5 but I would still leave the M5 there.

Cheers
Peter

 

[airnut]

Arie,

Please ignore my rambling above on how to do this. I have now been down that road and not been able to make that particular solution work. The good news is that I have come up with a solution that does indeed work well.

Your suggestion will work well. I think using the other 2 relays is a bit of genius. The down side is using up TTL output ports and I think you would also have to use a relay system in the E Stop circuit.

I will post a diagram of how I did it with a few photos shortly.

Regards,

Steve

 

[airnut]

Arie,

As promised, Here is the circuit diagram and a photo of the card I built to make it work. I have been working with this for a few weeks now and it seems to work very well.

In my case ,I also have a power draw bar. Today I found that feature requires the spindle to be stopped to use the the tool in and tool out unit which makes sense. By attaching the power input lead that feeds the tool in /out switch to the output of the Brake SSR the unintended bonus in this design is when the spindle is stopped the brake is on and also turning off the brake with the button also disables the draw bar function. Masso controls the spindle stop functions through the relays. Couldn't be much better.

Regards,

Steve