New TTL relay board causing 7V on outputs...

[tayloredtech]

Hey guys

After some power issues that fried my 2x 8 channel TTL relay boards I got some replacement 4 channel boards but found something very strange once they were plugged in.

I tested the Masso outputs and they are fine (5V when low and 0 when off)

When I plug in the inputs to Masso's outputs I find the Masso now put out 7V and no change when set to high or low on the settings page. I disconnected the outputs and the Masso is back to 5 and 0 volt... I tried a second 4 channel board but the same thing. Tried the next line of outputs on the Masso and same thing?!

They are designed for Arduino and all specs look identical to what I had. See below

"This modules contains 4 relays, rated at 24V and 10A. Each relay has a LED indicator. It can be used to control various appliances, and other equipment with large current. It can be controlled directly with 3.3V or 5V logic signals from a microcontroller (Arduino, 8051, AVR, PIC, DSP, ARM, ARM, MSP430, TTL logic). Each relay has an Optocoupler, providing optical isolation. Each relay also have a freewheeling diode protection. This module has a 6 pin header(standard 2.54mm pitch) for connecting power (24V and GND), and controlling the 4 relays. These pins have the following functions:

• 
  IN1 to IN4: Controls relays 1 to 4, active Low! Relay will turn on when this input goes below about 2.0V
  
• 
  GND: Connect 0V to this pin. Is used to power the board (optocouplers and relays)
  
• 
  VCC: Connect 24V to this pin. Is used to power the board (optocouplers and relays)"
  

Does this mean there is some resistor on the new that is causing the issue?



Cheers

Mitch

 

[cncnutz]

Hi Mitch,

It sounds like the relay board you have has pull up resistors built into it. If you measure the voltage between Gnd and IN1 and you see voltage there then the board is not compatible with Masso. Maybe removing the Link will help. I think some of the boards allow you to split the circuit in two and changes the way the input behaves but it needs to be wired differently.

There is more information about it here: https://www.masso.com.au/forums/topic/ttl-outputs-relay-module-problem/?part=1

The relay should turn on when it sees a 5 volt output from Masso not when the output goes low.

Cheers Peter

 

[tayloredtech]

Quote from CNCnutz on May 23, 2020, 1:47 pm

Hi Mitch,

It sounds like the relay board you have has pull up resistors built into it. If you measure the voltage between Gnd and IN1 and you see voltage there then the board is not compatible with Masso. Maybe removing the Link will help. I think some of the boards allow you to split the circuit in two and changes the way the input behaves but it needs to be wired differently.

There is more information about it here: https://www.masso.com.au/forums/topic/ttl-outputs-relay-module-problem/?part=1

The relay should turn on when it sees a 5 volt output from Masso not when the output goes low.

Cheers Peter

disconnecting the jumper just stops the relays activating so I think it is just cutting the 24V line that activates the relays. Haha that was my original post from a while ago. I read through it again but don't know if it helps with this relay. I got lost with the wiring diagram as I am not that techy unfortunately. If it says it works with both 3.3V and 5V TTL why would there be a resistor or something causing the voltage to jump up when connected? when i ground the inputs going into the relay they activate so they work on 0V but something is causing the Masso to respond and bump the voltage up. What i find strange is that there is no change in that voltage when I set Masso to low or high. I would have presumed it would at least drop some voltage?

Cheers Peter

Mitch

 

[tayloredtech]

Quote from CNCnutz on May 23, 2020, 1:47 pm

Hi Mitch,

It sounds like the relay board you have has pull up resistors built into it. If you measure the voltage between Gnd and IN1 and you see voltage there then the board is not compatible with Masso. Maybe removing the Link will help. I think some of the boards allow you to split the circuit in two and changes the way the input behaves but it needs to be wired differently.

There is more information about it here: https://www.masso.com.au/forums/topic/ttl-outputs-relay-module-problem/?part=1

The relay should turn on when it sees a 5 volt output from Masso not when the output goes low.

Cheers Peter

They just about look identical... It's just the jumper that's different but the first relay was 5V and the second 24V...

Any more ideas?

 

[breezy]

Mitch,

Peter asked but you didn't reply to his question

If you measure the voltage between Gnd and IN1 do you see voltage there?

Regards,

Arie.

 

[tayloredtech]

Quote from Breezy on May 23, 2020, 6:31 pm

Mitch,

Peter asked but you didn't reply to his question

If you measure the voltage between Gnd and IN1 do you see voltage there?

Regards,

Arie.

Didn't see a question there but I did check voltage between ground and the input and yes there's voltage. How's that possible when the relay says it's 5v low 0V high.. I don't follow this, the relay looks the same in all components and the circuitry is so simple. What am I missing?

 

[cncnutz]

Hi Mitch,

When you invert the Output you will find that when you turn the output off it will go high and you will measure 5 volts and when you turn the output on it will measure 0 volts. Basically the opposite of that you had before.

At the risk of sounding like a salesman, have you seen the new Masso relay? It is designed specifically to work with Masso TTL outputs and runs on 24 volts.

If your relay module inputs have a voltage on them then they are not suitable for Masso TTL ouputs.

If you want to figure out what is happening with the relay module you will need to draw out the circuit. It will probably be obvious when you see it.

Cheers Peter

 

[derekmccoy]

Quote from CNCnutz on May 23, 2020, 7:48 pm

At the risk of sounding like a salesman, have you seen the new Masso relay? It is designed specifically to work with Masso TTL outputs and runs on 24 volts.

Sorry to interrupt, can it be purchased in the UK? 3DTEK don't have it listed on their site so I'm currently looking to get this one: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124071542735

 

[tayloredtech]

Quote from CNCnutz on May 23, 2020, 7:48 pm

Hi Mitch,

When you invert the Output you will find that when you turn the output off it will go high and you will measure 5 volts and when you turn the output on it will measure 0 volts. Basically the opposite of that you had before.

At the risk of sounding like a salesman, have you seen the new Masso relay? It is designed specifically to work with Masso TTL outputs and runs on 24 volts.

If your relay module inputs have a voltage on them then they are not suitable for Masso TTL ouputs.

If you want to figure out what is happening with the relay module you will need to draw out the circuit. It will probably be obvious when you see it.

Cheers Peter

The relay I had before was off at 5V and on at 0V. This new board when not plugged into Masso is the exact same. 0V turns them on and 5V off. That is why I am confused how it is different. The only difference I can see is the relays on the old unit were 5V and these are 24V. I am using the 24V and ground from the Masso to power the board. the 7V i recorded was between output 1 and ground of the board. When nothing is plugged in to the relay board I get 21V between its ground and input 1. Not sure if that is right but I have a couple spare relay boards I can sacrifice if anyone has a mad idea to try?

I was going to buy the Masso relay but $100AUD shipped was a bit steep for 6 relays when many of them are just switching 12V to energize more relays switching 230V. I had a G2 that had relay outputs already but the G3 removed them so I'm already double switching and didn't want to pay $300 worth of relays to switch more relays if you follow.

 

[tayloredtech]

@cncnutz

So I may have a buggered Masso...

Just thought I would try the "dead" 5Vrelay board I had working for the past few years off the the Masso and it is working fine just as the new ones do. The Masso wouldn't trigger any of the original board once I put it in. With a multi meter I checked the Masso outputs and it went 4.98V when off and maybe 0.31v when activated but is there a chance there is a problem with the Masso? @masso-support

 

[cncnutz]

Hi Mitch,

Are you by chance moving the relay board between a G2 and a G3 Masso?

Cheers Peter

 

[tayloredtech]

Quote from CNCnutz on May 23, 2020, 9:46 pm

Hi Mitch,

Are you by chance moving the relay board between a G2 and a G3 Masso?

Cheers Peter

Yes. Should there be a difference on the TTL outputs? I just swapped them over

 

[cncnutz]

Mitch

If memory serves correct and I could be entirely wrong here, the TTL outputs have added protection on them to stop extraneous voltages feeding back into the output and damaging it.

If the output when you turn it on, measures 5 volts (ish) and when you turn it off, measures 0 volt (ish) them the output is fine. The measurements you mention sound right but from your description I'm picking you have the output inverted because it seems to be working backwards.

I think I'm right that protection was added because too many people were damaging the G2 TTL outputs with these strange TTL boards and ignoring the warnings in the documentation.

CAUTION: Do not use cheap relay modules as they are known to feed back voltages into MASSO and completely destroying the controller.

I think your G3 is still working ok.

Cheers Peter

 

[tayloredtech]

Quote from CNCnutz on May 23, 2020, 10:13 pm

Mitch

If memory serves correct and I could be entirely wrong here, the TTL outputs have added protection on them to stop extraneous voltages feeding back into the output and damaging it.

If the output when you turn it on, measures 5 volts (ish) and when you turn it off, measures 0 volt (ish) them the output is fine. The measurements you mention sound right but from your description I'm picking you have the output inverted because it seems to be working backwards.

I think I'm right that protection was added because too many people were damaging the G2 TTL outputs with these strange TTL boards and ignoring the warnings in the documentation.

CAUTION: Do not use cheap relay modules as they are known to feed back voltages into MASSO and completely destroying the controller.

I think your G3 is still working ok.

Cheers Peter

Interesting... The funny things is, above that warning it says you can buy relay boards from Amazon and eBay... and there weren't other options when G2 came out. Everyone has been using those boards (they're all pretty much the same)

It had been working well for 2 years so it's obviously very frustrating upgrading to the new G3 and now having no ability to use relays without buying the Masso relay board... I will go to Jaycar and buy a few solid states to get me out of jail because I've not been able to use the machine for few weeks cause of this now.

EDIT: Don't even think the Jaycar relays will work as they can pull up to 15ma and the outputs can only do 5ma if I remember right?

Mitch

 

[tayloredtech]

Quote from CNCnutz on May 23, 2020, 10:13 pm

Mitch

If memory serves correct and I could be entirely wrong here, the TTL outputs have added protection on them to stop extraneous voltages feeding back into the output and damaging it.

If the output when you turn it on, measures 5 volts (ish) and when you turn it off, measures 0 volt (ish) them the output is fine. The measurements you mention sound right but from your description I'm picking you have the output inverted because it seems to be working backwards.

I think I'm right that protection was added because too many people were damaging the G2 TTL outputs with these strange TTL boards and ignoring the warnings in the documentation.

CAUTION: Do not use cheap relay modules as they are known to feed back voltages into MASSO and completely destroying the controller.

I think your G3 is still working ok.

Cheers Peter

These relays are optically isolated it says and it has that opti-coupler thing that Masso has on its inputs. Shouldn't that mean they shouldn't feedback? There's circuit lines on both sides of the board so its hard to follow to draw a diagram but I see something with a Q on it (Q1-8) 2 resistors per input and another thing that looks like a diode at the top below the relay

 

[cncnutz]

Your right Mitch,

The circuit has optocouple IC in them but I think they bypass isolation by connecting the power supply to both sides and that is why you are seeing the voltage on the board input.

The problem with your board is that it is working active low while Masso outputs are active high and your board input outputs a voltage. There may be a way to change it but without a manual you don't know.

The boards I bought off Amazon and EBay had a link that allowed you to set it Active high for use with Masso. The problem with the boards I bought is they have no part number to ensure you get the right one. They have no instructions and on how ot use them or how to set it up. Links to seller change so there is no one place to purchase them. Great if you can find one and know how to use it. I had to search through photos on Ebay and Amazon looking for what I thought was correct and cross my fingers as I'm sure many others had to do.

The obvious solution is for Masso to make a relay board in house that works, is easy to connect which they have now done. Users still have the option to source or make their own board if they want. So long as the board does not output a voltage at it's input and operates the relay when a 5 volt signal is applied to the input you are good to go.

Don't get me wrong, I understand where you are coming from. It worked on the old, why doesn't work on the new? It is annoying and confusing but it is really important that the relay board you use does not output a voltage back to Masso. At the end of your topic I mentioned earlier, Stephen was having to repair his Masso as the voltage from a board destroyed one of his TTL outputs and it was one he could not do without.

Cheers Peter

 

[tayloredtech]

Quote from CNCnutz on May 24, 2020, 9:24 pm

Your right Mitch,

The circuit has optocouple IC in them but I think they bypass isolation by connecting the power supply to both sides and that is why you are seeing the voltage on the board input.

The problem with your board is that it is working active low while Masso outputs are active high and your board input outputs a voltage. There may be a way to change it but without a manual you don't know.

The boards I bought off Amazon and EBay had a link that allowed you to set it Active high for use with Masso. The problem with the boards I bought is they have no part number to ensure you get the right one. They have no instructions and on how ot use them or how to set it up. Links to seller change so there is no one place to purchase them. Great if you can find one and know how to use it. I had to search through photos on Ebay and Amazon looking for what I thought was correct and cross my fingers as I'm sure many others had to do.

The obvious solution is for Masso to make a relay board in house that works, is easy to connect which they have now done. Users still have the option to source or make their own board if they want. So long as the board does not output a voltage at it's input and operates the relay when a 5 volt signal is applied to the input you are good to go.

Don't get me wrong, I understand where you are coming from. It worked on the old, why doesn't work on the new? It is annoying and confusing but it is really important that the relay board you use does not output a voltage back to Masso. At the end of your topic I mentioned earlier, Stephen was having to repair his Masso as the voltage from a board destroyed one of his TTL outputs and it was one he could not do without.

Cheers Peter

Oh ok, I thought it was normal for the 0v is high thing.. Now things are making more sense.. I had all my outputs inverted on the G2, I thought someone said that's just how they always are. I just tested the single channel ttl relay I have too and same deal, all active on low and the board I originally had installed (5V relays) has 3v on the input pins. Guess I'll grab a Masso relay then, have to get more later as I think I literally have every output accounted for now! Also every input (as long as I can get Jatinder to add A and B jogging inputs for when I go to 5 axis...

Well I now have 3x 8 channel boards, 4x 4 channel boards and 2 single channel boards if you know anyone that wants them for their G2! haha Thankfully they aren't expensive but would be nice to have a use for them now.

Thanks for the help Pete.

Mitch

 

[tayloredtech]

@cncnutz

Hey Pete,

I bought a board identical to this from another site with High or Low active selection. Is that like what you originally purchased?

https://www.amazon.com/8-Channel-Optocoupler-Isolation-Automation-Industrial/dp/B07BLRNPB2

 

[cncnutz]

Hi Mitch

From what I can see it looks the same.

Just connect the power to it and measure between the input and ground (DC-). Make sure there is no voltage present. I have the link in the high position on mine.

On mine 3 volts applied between DC- and the input will be enough to trigger the relay

All the best

Cheers Peter