Rebuild of a stone router.

[andrew-h]

I bought a 2006 model (3.2 x 2.2 bed) Italian brand stone router that is no longer supported by the company that built it. Although I believe the machine still works, I got no documentation with it and the company refuses to supply me with anything beyond a very large quote to upgrade the control system to their newest PC based thing. The old thing is a proprietary DOS based system with Italian sub titles. I no speaka.

I have just fired up my first Masso on a test panel (which will be used on one of our other machines) but I like it well enough to think about gutting the Italian and fitting a Masso to it as well. He he - now I make him speaka da Masso.

It is a standard 3 axis machine with Sanyo servos, a 10Kw spindle and a 24 station BT40 toolbed. I am not in too much of a hurry and hope to do the job right and hopefully you guys can show me some of the ropes.

 

[zombieengineer]

If the old control system is still functional, use Google translate to make some sense of the existing system (at least to jog the machine, manually issue tools change commands and/or run sample g-code.

The servos should be driven by a Step + Direction signal for each axis. If there is a separate driver for each servo this should make it a little simpler. You might be lucky and the manufacturer of the servo driver can be determined (doubt it is the same Italian company that supplied the stone router system) - if you can find the servo driver manual then you are half way home. Worst case scenario would be to wire some LEDs (with resistors) to monitor the wiring to determine which wire is Step/Direction for each axis (hence the need to jog the machine). Had a quick look at a manual for a Sanyo servo driver (Sanmotion) and one wiring configuration has pulses forward and pulses reverse as opposed to the usual Step/Direction combination.

Similarly the VFD driver electronics - would be useful to know the manufacturer and model number. The number of control signal wires between the VFD driver electronics and the CNC control PC should give an indication of what you are dealing with (2 wires - forward/speed, 3 wires forward/reverse/speed, more than 3 wires means more trouble).

You mentioned that you have a 24 station BT40 toolbed - is this a linear arrangement or a rotary tool change system (aka umbrella tool changer)?

If you have an umbrella tool changer - that is going to be the most difficult thing to integrate.

 

[andrew-h]

We got the machine to do various things by doing some of the things that you suggested. It has its own programming screen which looks like a very old version of Autocad so from a bit of prior Autocad knowledge we could draw some shapes and after working its homing routine out we could make it move about. But I have no further motivation to learn its particular tricks when I could spend the mental energy learning Masso which I might incorporate into our standard machine line-up. (We are stone machine manufacturers)

I am going to gut the Italian and use its hardware connected to a Masso in a completely rebuilt panel. I will try to upload a picture of my current experimental panel. It has closed loop steppers.

I have just finished a tear down of the spindle and it is not that tidy in there. Someone had a rough go at it in the past so it needs a rebuild or a replace.

The tools are all in a nice long line along the X at the back of the machine. But they were all exposed to all of the muck flung off a water cooled process. So each toolchange included a wet filthy tool into the spindle. No wonder it looks like it does. I would like to put a shield over them.

 

[andrew-h]

Merry Christmas to those who observe it.

1. The Italian has Sanmotion drives, pictured below with a brake resistor for each drive X,Y and Z and an additional brake for the Z axis.

2. The drives feed Sanyo brushless servo motors.

3. The spindle is fed by an 11Kw Toshiba drive, also with a brake resistor, which looks pretty conventional.

4. The machine has the normal homing and end limits and a few alarm conditions (low air pressure, low vacuum, no water etc)

5. There are two external service motors that Masso will also need to switch and i have learnt that it is possible as are the conditions mentioned in 4 above.

6. Is a Masso suitable?

 

[andrew-h]

I have successfully connected a masso to the above mentioned drives and all appears to be compatible but I have a Z axis problem in that it gives a homing error.

• I have watched Peter's homing video and applied it.
  
• I have made my homing speed very low
  
• I have hard limits fitted
  
• I treat max up on the Z as 0 and max down as -500
  
• I can change the pull off distance for the X and the Y but not the Z axis. It is stuck on 9.999
  
• It does not clear the hard limit and gives me a homing error alarm
  

Can someone please show m my fault?

 

[breezy]

@andrew-h

Andrew,

Provide a copy of your Printable Config text file MASSO settings (G3-xxxx) Mill.txt (you'll have to zip to upload).
And screen dumps of the homing and Z axis screens. (Prt scn key or Ctrl + P).

Regards,

Arie.

 

[andrew-h]

Arie,

Many thanks for your prompt attention.

In my introduction to this forum I promised to impress you guys with my ignorance. This is an example:

I had not calibrated the Z Axis correctly, before I tried homing it.

It was overreading such that the 40mm pull-off i asked for was not sufficient to allow the hard limit to go low.

The only remaining issue is Z home still reads 9.99something - which i assume is a 10 that i have got hidden somewhere. The other axes are on 0.000.

Greets,

 

[cncnutz]

Hi Andrew H

In the F1 Homing screen you will find you have set the homing position for the Z axis as 10. The 9.99x will be the closest it can get to it with your machine resolution.

If I am wrong please post your printable settings file.

Cheers Peter

 

[andrew-h]

Hi Peter,

Whatever pull-off distance I put in - it does. And until 10 minutes ago it it would show 9.99x irrespective of the pull-off.

So I pressed the Z zero button.

Power cycle test confirms 0.000

Thanks for your help.

 

[cncnutz]

Hi Andrew H

Thanks for the update.
I misunderstood where you were seeing the value of 9.99x on the screen.
I thought you were talking about the machine coordinates when you were talking about the Working coordinates.
The working coordinates will display values based on where the machine was last zeroed.
Once you start using the machine you will probably not see them as 0 again which is how it should be.
Machine coordinates on the other hand should always ready what every you have in the home position value in the F1 Homing screen.

Cheers Peter

 

[andrew-h]

This is a tool-change issue. Please moderator, feel free to shift this post to the tool-change header if required.

Happy New all!

I have been overhauling and re-assembling a very battered BT 40 spindle for this machine and am nearing completion. Prior to fitting the spindle I have some pre-emptive questions that I do not see on the tool-change header on the forum.

1. My spindle has an air cylinder that indexes the drive lugs of the BT 40 cone and locks the spindle shaft to correctly orientate the cones, with a sensor that confirms the action OK.
2. The sprung cone-lock drawbar is by default, normally clamped, with a sensor indicating this.
3. Unlock or unclamp is by air pressure with a different sensor indicating this. Ie a second sensor

From my reading of the manual:

1. I see no reference to the shaft orientation?
2. It appears that Masso only supports one sensor on the drawbar ie either sensor high or sensor low and not 2 sensors as per my spindle (which I would prefer to keep)

The gantry / chassis of the machine is up and running and in my opinion very promising with its new Masso controller. I look forward to milling some rock with it soon.

Greets.

 

[cncnutz]

Hi Andrew

What tool change logic are you looking at?
Can you use the chuck clamp output to orientate the shaft at the same time?
What are the 2 sensors on your spindle used for? I assume one shows if the chuck is open or closed so what does the 2nd one do?

Looking forward to seeing your machine up and working. Hopefully you can share some photos or video of the machine in action.

Cheers Peter

 

[andrew-h]

Hi Peter,

I am currently prevented from doing what I want, by what I should! But to belatedly answer your questions:

The tool rack is a linear one at the rear of the Y axis and along the X.

The first photo shows the BT40 cone whose drive lugs need to be aligned North-South for tool-changing.
The second shows the pneumatic cylinder that locks the shaft in the North-South orientation and the sensor that reports this to be OK
The third picture shows the spindle in the clamped position with the upper sensor triggered. When the spindle unclamps then the bottom sensor will go high.

The spindle is a "normal" 3 phase motor controlled via VSD. I am not certain how the previous controller would activate the pneumatic cylinder index lock, but if I did it via PLC control I would probably activate it just before final spool down timer timed out. I am unaware of whether the VSD or the Masso has some trick that I am unaware of, to do this. So at present I see the whole tool-change sequence as being:

Stop spindle
Lock spindle North-South
Open tool bin
Go to tool port
Lower Z
Creep +Y
Unclamp
Raise Z
Go to tool port
Lower Z
Clamp
Creep -Y
Raise Z
Close tool bin
Unlock spindle North-South

I am comfortable with most of it except the North-South bit. Your comments appreciated.

 

[cncnutz]

Does the cylinder that clamps the spindle?
I'm wondering if it is on some sort of cam than rotates the spindle as it operated to align it and lock.
If it does you might be able to use the tool tray outputs and sensors or the dust hood outputs and sensors to align and lock the spindle.

You will need to understand exactly how the orientation and lock work on the spindle.

Cheers Peter

 

[andrew-h]

Correct. The cylinder puts a pin into a hole and locks the shaft.
There is no cam - it appears to me that the cylinder will shock-stop the spindle at some point in its spin down routine. Seems crude.

But in essence I hear you. I will get it all connected up first and then play with all of the available signals that you mentioned coming out of the Masso.

"You will need to understand exactly how the orientation and lock work on the spindle." Agreed. on the old control panel there was a stepper driver mounted very close to the Toshiba spindle VSD. I could not work out its function but perhaps I need to look at that.

In the interim Peter, do you know if M19 - spindle orientation is a supported Masso function? I think this might be relevant.

Cheers Andrew.

 

[cncnutz]

Thanks Andrew.

M19 is not among the chosen I'm afraid.

I must admit I'm not keen on the brute force idea of alignment.
Is it possible that the stepper you mention engaged with and rotated the spindle then when the sensor detected it was in the right spot it pushed in the pin and stopped the stepper? That would be a lot less violent.

Cheers Peter

 

[andrew-h]

Ja I would imagine that if M19 would be supported then it would also involve an encoded spindle.

I will investigate this stepper drive a bit more closely - methinks there was a trick that the old system employed. Thanks and have a good weekend.

 

[Canyon]

Hello Andrew how are you? How is your rebuild Doing?

It appears i have the blue sister to your Italian the Quota 3000 edition (YAY US lol) and i have been looking at doing the same thing....

Unlike your situation i have combed out the system to a point where i understand the sequence and can place pods and stops and mill stone with the old buggy proprietary programs of denver. It just will not allow me to do a ATC tool change to a finger bit after coreing a hole it says waiting for signal that i havenot been able to figure out... I do have the lingering feeling that the day will come that i will be faced with the fact that there just wont be replacement's or something else falling out of the sky with it...

Through your experience i have to ask what would you recommend and or wish you did from the very start?

Cheers, Thanks in Advance


..