Stepperonline CL86Y - Wiring (5v?)

[blaze]

Well down to the last of the testing before transplanting into the machine itself. I am trying to get the closed-loop stepper motor to work with the CL86Y driver Documentation Here. From what I read on the install documentation with masso is that the sig + direction + are -4v - +4v where the driver voltage I need requires 5v min am I correct in saying this?
If that is the case and I require 5-24V for the DR+ PU+ linked together from the 24v supply (masso) to and then input the negatives (-) into the masso controller. Below is a diagram. Is this correct? MF + - Not needed. Switches - OFF OFF OFF ON ON OFF ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 ) - 2000 PPR

 

[cnc_innovator]

i just installed closed loop steppers in my machine. Check out CNCNutz on youtube on how to set them up. I setup my alarm by running a wire from masso 24v power output and then a wire back to the input. works fine

 

[blaze]

This is how I wired mine up, can't seem to get the motors to turn at all.
Not sure if the resistor is necessary then according to the youtube vid above its wired directly to the power and the input ?

 

[zombieengineer]

@blaze

I cringe at your wiring diagram as it will probably place unnecessary stress on the MASSO output driver circuit (with the potential to fry the output chip).

The output chip is driven by a +5 volt power supply (MASSO has an internal voltage regulator that supplies the various outputs and USB ports).

There is a fundamental limitation for logic circuits that any input or output must remain between -0.5V and supply voltage +0.5V (in this case +5V +0.5V = +5.5V). There are built in protection diodes for accidental Electro-Static Discharge (aka ESD - think the zap when you scuff your feet on carpet and touch a door handle). The only thing protecting MASSO in your circuit diagram is the input resistor in the stepper driver. Gut feeling is you should not have damaged your controller but I do not expect stepper motor driver to recognize any signals from MASSO (if the protection diodes kick in then the driver will see a constant on state).

Suggested Wiring

• MASSO Axis S+ connects to Stepper Driver PU+
  
• MASSO Axis S- connects to Stepper Driver PU-
  
• MASSO Axis D+ connects to Stepper Driver DR+
  
• MASSO Axis D- connects to Stepper Driver DR-
  
• MASSO TTL Output ES connects to Stepper Driver MF+
  
• MASSO GND connects to Stepper Driver MF-
  

The last two wiring connections (MF+/MF-) are the "Drive Enable" connection. The MASSO TTL Output ES can be found on a MASSO G3 controller between TTL Output 18 and Spindle Control (this terminal has a tendency to hide). If you do not wish to use the MASSO Emergency Stop output to connect to the Stepper Drive then connect the Stepper Driver MF+ to 24V.

 

[zombieengineer]

@blaze

The documentation is not very clear with the "Drive Enable" inputs (MF+ / MF-).

If the stepper driver is enabled the shaft will be held in place and you will not be able to turn it by hand.

If the stepper driver is not enabled then you should be able to turn the shaft (there might be "notching" as the rotor clicks past the magnet poles but this occurs with an unconnected stepper motor).

EDIT: Various web postings suggest the MF+ / MF- can be left disconnected. Power on your stepper driver and if the shaft feels locked in place then the stepper motor driver is enabled.

 

[blaze]

Gday @zombieengineer
I didn't wire it up as I have drawn. This was just a question on if I screwed up my initial wiring, which by reading your reply and having a near heart attack I was correct as to ask the questions here .
I wired direct without the MF so I'm sure that's is what is stopping my driver from turning. I will defiantly be wiring them in tomorrow and retesting them. Also nice to know the voltages were correct as from what I read, most controllers output a 5V-24 (uncommon) signal, so phew.
Since I have the g3 Touch with the emergency stop, I'll break out the 24V+ for the steppers as I will be using the mpg pendant (later on) with the ES to swap that around at a later date if necessary.

I agree with the documentation side on the MF+/- I must not have seen it while reading.

As for the alarm settings, is the resistor as stated in the documentation (5.6k) on the + side to one of the "power" pins for the 24V+ side necessary? Just by going from the youtube video above, I didn't see it being used.

Appreciate the reply and clarification @zombieengineer

 

[zombieengineer]

@blaze

It appears that the MF+/MF- can be left disconnected (see previous edit).

Initially leave the alarm disconnected, get the motor spinning first then add the alarm input.

There are two ways to wire the alarm signal:

Quick and dirty:

• Connect +24V to Stepper Driver ALM+
  
• Connect ALM- to a MASSO input
  
• Configure the MASSO input as "# Axis Motor Alarm Input" from the F1 screen
  

The Pedantic "keeping Murphy out of the workshop":

• Connect +24V to Stepper Driver ALM+ using a resistor (4.7K or 5.6K are good values)
  
• Connect ALM- to a MASSO input
  
• Configure the MASSO input as "# Axis Motor Alarm Input" from the F1 screen
  

The resistor is only there to ensure if the wiring develops a fault (cracked insulation due to rubbing) that any subsequent short circuits doesn't cause further damage (blown fuse, tripped circuit breaker, smoking power supply...).

 

[blaze]

@zombieengineer thanks mate ill give it a crack tomorrow and report back.

Some reason even with a new 2032 battery I'm getting battery error ... might try another batter tomorrow too

My little test setup

 

[zombieengineer]

Quote from blaze on August 1, 2021, 8:41 pm

Some reason even with a new 2032 battery I'm getting battery error ... might try another batter tomorrow too

@blaze - Check https://docs.masso.com.au/wiring-an...ration/installing-or-replacing-backup-battery

After installing a new battery, power on the unit and you will still see the same error message, next power off the controller and power back on after 5-10 seconds and the message will be automatically removed once the battery is detected by the controller.

 

[blaze]

@zombieengineer

So managed to get the battery cleared as stated in the manual. The problem is I can not get the motor to move at all. It can be moved freely by hand once connected. It didn't matter if MF +/- is connected or not. I continuity tested all wiring and cabling.
Not sure why it's not working at all. I have attached the wiring diagram maybe can pick up something have missed. I have only changed 1 thing inside of the masso (x-axis) was the pule per rev to 2000 left the rest as default.

 

[zombieengineer]

@blaze

If the stepper motor driver is active you should not be able to turn the shaft by hand - the problem is with the stepper driver / wiring.

I would disconnect the step/direction wiring from MASSO until we can get a "locked shaft" situation.

There should be 2 LEDs on the driver:

• Green - Power ON indication (should be lit constantly)
  
• Red - Alarm condition, should be off. Fault state indicated by the number of flashes (1 = Over-current / motor failure, 2 = Over-voltage, 3 = Under-voltage, 5 = position error)
  

The switch settings appear to be correct.

The one thing that I can't see is how the motor current is set. I think the USB port on the stepper driver is the key to the problem / solution. The web site appears to have a few links at the bottom, one of which is the tuning software. You may need to plug the stepper driver into a PC and program the motor current.

The torque of a stepper motor is proportional to the current (for the same motor). It might be the drives have been programmed with 0.1A which will result in zero torque. Too much current and the motor will overheat (stepper motors run "fairly warm" on a good day).

 

[blaze]

@zombieengineer

Thanks for the reply. The green light is always on. I did have a state a couple of times with a 6 blink red which I tried to find on the site and through tech support but still waiting on a response from them. Since pulling the power and waiting a couple min and reconnection the drivers again this has gone away.
As for programming, the driver did I need this bloody thing? Link to module

I have the motors calculated for 6A (max rated) per motor at 60VDC (range 30-110) with an existing 16-60 gear reduction on the gantry etc so lots of torque. But not sure if they are auto-set from the factory or not...
I did however try another driver (as i have 4) and the same issue. So I'm guessing it may be the wiring but I'm sure I checked it 3 times with a multimeter and ping the cables and connectors. I will have to retry tomorrow or try a different motor ??

 

[blaze]

Bit of an update I did manage to get the motor to work today.

According to the documentation, I was correct IF it wasn't connected to the loom that was supplied with the kit. Not very good documentation...

The encoder extension cable wiring colours are as follows, if anyone needs it for the future.

1 - Black - EA+

2 - White - GND

3 - Red - VCC

11 - yellow - EB+

12 - Green - EB-

13 - Blue - EA-

As for the feed rate, speeds etc, I am unsure what to insert into these boxes on the masso. Only boxed i changed was the pulse per rev - set to 2000 (set from the driver switches).
I guess I can not really calibrate these until the motors are in the machine and wired up.

Example of the window I am referring to (pulled for the manual)

 

[zombieengineer]

@blaze

• "Motor Distance per Revolution" is how much does an axis move for 1 revolution of the motor axis - fairly straight forward.
  
• "Drive Pulses per revolution" => As per switches on stepper driver
  
• "Travel minimum" => Leave this as zero
  
• "Travel maximum" => Distance that you can move along the axis
  
• "Maximum Feedrate" / "Acceleration" => Tune to suit your setup
  • Not enough information to provide a numerical analysis (I really need to finish that spreadsheet sometime). Factors include:
    • Axis motor characteristic (torque vs speed curve)
      
    • Axis efficiency (mechanical losses / friction)
      
    • Axis length (maximum speed is a function of acceleration and length to accelerate over)
      
    • Axis advance per revolution (gear boxes, etc)
      
    • Spindle power
      
    • Material being machined (spindle power / cutting speed => cutting force => motor torque)
      
    • Mass of moving parts (gantry / spindle)
      
    
    
    
  • Can get messy as there are a number of limiting factors that will limit maximum speed/acceleration
    
  
  
  

The spindle power is an interesting discussion as you can reach a point where the maximum usable spindle power is limited by the cutting bit, not the spindle motor (from memory the maximum power is a square of shaft diameter).

 

[breezy]

@blaze

You are correct about PPR if driver is set to 2000 steps for one revolution that is what you enter into MASSO.

Distance per revolution is the distance that the axis moves for one revolution of the stepper motor, this can be calculated from the gearing of your axis, be it leadscrew, rack & pinion or belt. Once you have everything mounted you can then use the wizard to tune the correct setting.

Axis Calibration Wizard

docs.masso.com.au

Max feedrate is the speed you want your rapids to run at and acceleration is how fast you want it to get to that speed, you need to be careful here too fast and you will get lost steps.

Max/Min travel is the length of the axis. MASSO uses this to set soft limits, set longer than the axis you will crash into the end stops, set it too short and you won't have full use of the axis length.

Backlash is the measured backlash once you have everything else setup and working.

Backlash Compensation

docs.masso.com.au

This video is from 2 years ago but will show how to go about measuring and correcting backlash. It is using Mach3 but the principle is the same.

Regards,

Arie.

 

[breezy]

Quote from ZombieEngineer on August 3, 2021, 9:54 pm

• "Travel minimum" => Leave this as zero
  

Not quite true.

On the Z axis this is set to negative of the Z axis length and the Max is set to zero, this sets the machine Z axis zero position at the top of the travel. This being the standard location of the Z axis homing position.

Regards,

Arie.

 

[blaze]

Quote from ZombieEngineer on August 3, 2021, 9:54 pm

@blaze

• "Motor Distance per Revolution" is how much does an axis move for 1 revolution of the motor axis - fairly straight forward.
  
• "Drive Pulses per revolution" => As per switches on stepper driver
  
• "Travel minimum" => Leave this as zero
  
• "Travel maximum" => Distance that you can move along the axis
  
• "Maximum Feedrate" / "Acceleration" => Tune to suit your setup
  • Not enough information to provide a numerical analysis (I really need to finish that spreadsheet sometime). Factors include:
    • Axis motor characteristic (torque vs speed curve)
      
    • Axis efficiency (mechanical losses / friction)
      
    • Axis length (maximum speed is a function of acceleration and length to accelerate over)
      
    • Axis advance per revolution (gear boxes, etc)
      
    • Spindle power
      
    • Material being machined (spindle power / cutting speed => cutting force => motor torque)
      
    • Mass of moving parts (gantry / spindle)
      
    
    
    
  • Can get messy as there are a number of limiting factors that will limit maximum speed/acceleration
    
  
  
  

The spindle power is an interesting discussion as you can reach a point where the maximum usable spindle power is limited by the cutting bit, not the spindle motor (from memory the maximum power is a square of shaft diameter).

This hurts my face lol. But it's awesome to actually research and get all these numbers in place.
Thank you @zombieengineer I am always amazed by the details and knowledge you have. Definitely living up to your username.

 

[blaze]

Quote from Breezy on August 3, 2021, 10:05 pm

@blaze

You are correct about PPR if driver is set to 2000 steps for one revolution that is what you enter into MASSO.

Distance per revolution is the distance that the axis moves for one revolution of the stepper motor, this can be calculated from the gearing of your axis, be it leadscrew, rack & pinion or belt. Once you have everything mounted you can then use the wizard to tune the correct setting.

Axis Calibration Wizard

docs.masso.com.au

Max feedrate is the speed you want your rapids to run at and acceleration is how fast you want it to get to that speed, you need to be careful here too fast and you will get lost steps.

Max/Min travel is the length of the axis. MASSO uses this to set soft limits, set longer than the axis you will crash into the end stops, set it too short and you won't have full use of the axis length.

Backlash is the measured backlash once you have everything else setup and working.

Backlash Compensation

docs.masso.com.au

This video is from 2 years ago but will show how to go about measuring and correcting backlash. It is using Mach3 but the principle is the same.

Regards,

Arie.

@breezy / Arie Thank you I will be watching these very....often
I am in the middle of transplanting all the motors over to get it moving. After this i will be diving into major calibration and trying to work on my feeds and speeds...somehow (prepare for another forum post )

I do have rack and pinion on all but the z-axis which is liner rails with a ball screw. The X and Y axis have a 16-60T pulley setup so roughly 0.27 Gear ratio with a 33.75nM of torque (9nM from motor with the gear ratio) seems like a lot of torque...? Working out backlash, acceleration and other above mentioned by @zombieengineer will be quite a learning curve as i have only done a small amount on a DIY shapeoko which let's be honest its a toy in comparison. Might be able to see the setup on my build log Here

I also found this helpful little calculator : Link Here

 

[zombieengineer]

@blaze

The "max feed rate" and "acceleration" tuning parameters interact with each other, as @breezy mentioned push either of these too far and missed steps occur.

The only bit of advice I can give is set the max feed rate and acceleration such that the maximum feed rate is reached after traveling of the length of the axis (there are some maths behind using 1/4 but too complex to explain easily).

Therefore "Max Feed Rate" ? 60 x ?(0.5 x Axis_Length x "Acceleration")

If you have a 72 inch axis and using 4 inch/sec acceleration then the recommended maximum feed rate = 60 x ?(0.5 x 72 x 4) =60 x ?144 = 60 x 12 = 720 inch/minute.

The metric equivalent: 1800 mm axis using 100 mm/sec acceleration then the recommended maximum feed rate = 60 x ?(0.5 x 1800 x 100) = 60 x 300 = 18000 mm/minute

Unfortunately it is still a matter of trial and error to find values that suit your setup.

 

[blaze]

Quote from ZombieEngineer on August 4, 2021, 10:16 pm

@blaze

The "max feed rate" and "acceleration" tuning parameters interact with each other, as @breezy mentioned push either of these too far and missed steps occur.

The only bit of advice I can give is set the max feed rate and acceleration such that the maximum feed rate is reached after traveling of the length of the axis (there are some maths behind using 1/4 but too complex to explain easily).

Therefore "Max Feed Rate" ? 60 x ?(0.5 x Axis_Length x "Acceleration")

If you have a 72 inch axis and using 4 inch/sec acceleration then the recommended maximum feed rate = 60 x ?(0.5 x 72 x 4) =60 x ?144 = 60 x 12 = 720 inch/minute.

The metric equivalent: 1800 mm axis using 100 mm/sec acceleration then the recommended maximum feed rate = 60 x ?(0.5 x 1800 x 100) = 60 x 300 = 18000 mm/minute

Unfortunately it is still a matter of trial and error to find values that suit your setup.

@zombieengineer thanks mate least that gives me a starting point! I really appreciate the time you have given thus far I'm learning so much from not only you but the community. I'm so excited to make chips its been a process.