I'm thinking of getting one of these: https://www.amazon.com/SHINA-Automatic-Normally-Blowing-Presetter/dp/B01N80E2DO
Will that be plug and play with Masso?
Thanks!
Will that be plug and play with Masso?
Thanks!
Tool setter - will this work?
- Thread starter perry
- Start date
I wound up getting a slightly different one (though I suspect it's the same thing with a different label on it). the one above was backordered. I got this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PRPMZKS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Based on the attached wiring diagram, how does this get wired to the Masso? I think I'd like to use the over travel protection switch to trip the e-stop as well.
Thanks!
Based on the attached wiring diagram, how does this get wired to the Masso? I think I'd like to use the over travel protection switch to trip the e-stop as well.
Thanks!
Attachments
breezy
Moderator
Perry,
This has been discussed in a previous topic, but I'll make suggested connections here.
I'm assuming that there is a NC contact in the Yellow - Green circuit. Whilst that contact is closed the MASSO input is pulled and held low, when opened the input goes high.
Placing the over travel switch in the eStop circuit has the same effect as hitting the eStop button.
Regards,
Arie.
This has been discussed in a previous topic, but I'll make suggested connections here.
- Green -> -ve
- Yellow -> MASSO input
- Yellow -> via 5.6k resistor -> +ve
- Red & Black -> in series with eStop switch
I'm assuming that there is a NC contact in the Yellow - Green circuit. Whilst that contact is closed the MASSO input is pulled and held low, when opened the input goes high.
Placing the over travel switch in the eStop circuit has the same effect as hitting the eStop button.
Regards,
Arie.
Ok. So a tool setter is wired in the same way as (I think) a touch plate would be? https://docs.masso.com.au/wiring-and-setup/touch-plate -- what I always get confused by with this stuff is that the yellow is connected to two things in the diagram and for some reason I have a mental block about that!
So basically what I want is: yellow wire from the tool setter to the resistor, the other end of which is connected to a red Masso power connection. the yellow wire also continues on to connect to the selected Masso input. Green goes to the black Masso GND connection? Sorry, I'm still baffled by most of the electronics stuff. I've played with this stuff on and off for years, but have never really wrapped my head around how it works.
How/where (physically) are the resistors typically wired in? Do people usually wire them direct to the masso port, or inline in the wiring, with some heat shrink tubing or something to prevent shorting?
Thanks!
So basically what I want is: yellow wire from the tool setter to the resistor, the other end of which is connected to a red Masso power connection. the yellow wire also continues on to connect to the selected Masso input. Green goes to the black Masso GND connection? Sorry, I'm still baffled by most of the electronics stuff. I've played with this stuff on and off for years, but have never really wrapped my head around how it works.
How/where (physically) are the resistors typically wired in? Do people usually wire them direct to the masso port, or inline in the wiring, with some heat shrink tubing or something to prevent shorting?
Thanks!
breezy
Moderator
Perry,
Sort of. If weren't for the LED you could have wired to +ve and MASSO input as per https://docs.masso.com.au/wiring-and-setup/setup-and-calibration/list-of-configurable-inputs and got away with that, but the LED and resistor presents a high resistance path to +ve so we have to reverse the connections and provide a pull up resistor so that when the path to -ve is opened the input goes +ve. Whilst the switch is closed the input is pulled "low" towards -ve.
In regards to wiring this
Regards,
Arie.
Sort of. If weren't for the LED you could have wired to +ve and MASSO input as per https://docs.masso.com.au/wiring-and-setup/setup-and-calibration/list-of-configurable-inputs and got away with that, but the LED and resistor presents a high resistance path to +ve so we have to reverse the connections and provide a pull up resistor so that when the path to -ve is opened the input goes +ve. Whilst the switch is closed the input is pulled "low" towards -ve.
In regards to wiring this
- make a wire connection to one side of the resistor and heat shrink it.
- take the wire to +ve.
- insert the other side of resistor and yellow wire into the MASSO input.
- green wire to -ve.
Regards,
Arie.
Got it installed and it appears to work. I tested it by doing the following:
When I get to Z0 the end mill is sitting right at the work surface (well, a couple hundredths of a mm above it, but good enough for me). So, perfect - it worked!
However, I ran a job that includes a tool change. it did everything perfectly with the first tool, paused and requested the tool change, touched off on the tool setter after the change, and moved to the correct X,Y position to begin the first cut. Except it dropped about halfway into the material (aluminum), destroying the end mill in the process. I looked at my CAM and the hole it was cutting was no different than the holes done with the first tool, only a bit faster because I've switched from a 1-flute 1/8" endmill to a 3-flute 1/4" endmill so the feeds and speeds are a bit faster, though proportionally the same. In terms of setup it was done the same way as the smaller holes (Circular cut in Fusion 360), with the same ramping and depth of cut (ramp = 50% of full speed, depth of cut is .5mm).
At a bit of a loss here, because it does seem to be doing what it's supposed to do and I followed the procedure outlined in this video:
Here is the gcode from the tool change until some point after I hit the e-stop (forgot to write down the line I stopped it at):
And it may be worth noting that in the header of the gcode there's this:
The diameters are correct for the tooling, but what is that ZMIN number?
I made these using the Masso post processor for Fusion 360, by the way. I don't think the issue has to do with the origins in Fusion 360. My stock is set with X,Y,Z 0 at the front left corner of the stock, on the top surface. The first 3 operations worked perfectly, it just messed up after the tool change. (see attached)
- Homing the machine
- Setting the WCS Z0 to the surface of the work piece
- Initiating a tool change command (T2 M06)
- moving the position of the tool up a bit in the collet
- letting it touch off on the tool setter
- jogging to Z0
When I get to Z0 the end mill is sitting right at the work surface (well, a couple hundredths of a mm above it, but good enough for me). So, perfect - it worked!
However, I ran a job that includes a tool change. it did everything perfectly with the first tool, paused and requested the tool change, touched off on the tool setter after the change, and moved to the correct X,Y position to begin the first cut. Except it dropped about halfway into the material (aluminum), destroying the end mill in the process. I looked at my CAM and the hole it was cutting was no different than the holes done with the first tool, only a bit faster because I've switched from a 1-flute 1/8" endmill to a 3-flute 1/4" endmill so the feeds and speeds are a bit faster, though proportionally the same. In terms of setup it was done the same way as the smaller holes (Circular cut in Fusion 360), with the same ramping and depth of cut (ramp = 50% of full speed, depth of cut is .5mm).
At a bit of a loss here, because it does seem to be doing what it's supposed to do and I followed the procedure outlined in this video:
Here is the gcode from the tool change until some point after I hit the e-stop (forgot to write down the line I stopped it at):
Code:
(CIRCULAR1 3)
N44155 M5
N44160 M9
N44165 M1
N44170 T1 M6
N44175 T2
N44180 S16000 M3
N44185 G54
N44190 G0 X140.277 Y127.919
N44195 Z15.24
N44200 M8
N44205 Z1.524
N44210 G1 Z0.127 F500.
N44215 G18 G3 X139.642 Z-0.508 I-0.635 K0.
N44220 G1 X139.324
N44225 G17 G3 X138.748 Y127.343 I0. J-0.576
N44230 X141.052 I1.152 J0. F1500.
N44235 X138.748 I-1.152 J0.
N44240 X139.324 Y126.767 I0.576 J0. F500.
N44245 G1 X139.642
N44250 G18 G2 X140.277 Z0.127 I0. K0.635
N44255 G0 Z5.08
N44260 Y127.919
N44265 Z1.016
N44270 G1 Z-0.381 F500.
N44275 G3 X139.642 Z-1.016 I-0.635 K0.
N44280 G1 X139.324
N44285 G17 G3 X138.748 Y127.343 I0. J-0.576
N44290 X141.052 I1.152 J0. F1500.
N44295 X138.748 I-1.152 J0.
N44300 X139.324 Y126.767 I0.576 J0. F500.
N44305 G1 X139.642
N44310 G18 G2 X140.277 Z-0.381 I0. K0.635
N44315 G0 Z5.08
N44320 Y127.919
N44325 Z0.508And it may be worth noting that in the header of the gcode there's this:
Code:
(MEGAV-ZPLATE-V1)
(MEGAV Z-PLATE V1)
(T1 D=6.35 CR=0. - ZMIN=-13.462 - FLAT END MILL)
(T2 D=3.175 CR=0. - ZMIN=-13.462 - FLAT END MILL)The diameters are correct for the tooling, but what is that ZMIN number?
I made these using the Masso post processor for Fusion 360, by the way. I don't think the issue has to do with the origins in Fusion 360. My stock is set with X,Y,Z 0 at the front left corner of the stock, on the top surface. The first 3 operations worked perfectly, it just messed up after the tool change. (see attached)
Attachments
I went back downstairs to shut everything down for the night and realized the line of code where I stopped it was still displayed. Here s a screen shot I took with my phone before powering down.
conveniently, you can see two Z commands. The step down is what I d expect - .5mm - so I think the problem is that there s something up with Z0 here. I just don t know what.
(ignore the coordinates displayed there. I jogged the machine after stopping the job)
conveniently, you can see two Z commands. The step down is what I d expect - .5mm - so I think the problem is that there s something up with Z0 here. I just don t know what.
(ignore the coordinates displayed there. I jogged the machine after stopping the job)
Attachments
Hi Perry,
Masso only shows the first 2000 lines of Gcode and you are on line 8862 so that is not the last line you machined.
The most likely scenario is that you homed the machine, changed the tool, then set the tool onto the stock and zeroed out the Z axis.
If you do it this way the 2nd and all the following tool changes will be wrong.
Cheers
Peter
Masso only shows the first 2000 lines of Gcode and you are on line 8862 so that is not the last line you machined.
The most likely scenario is that you homed the machine, changed the tool, then set the tool onto the stock and zeroed out the Z axis.
If you do it this way the 2nd and all the following tool changes will be wrong.
Cheers
Peter
Hi Peter,
I'm confused - if a job fails, how do I know what line it failed at, so I can resume from an appropriate location? I thought that's what that was for. you're saying that the console output is only 2000 lines, but the line indicating the last line machined (above that console) is correct?
The sequence I followed was outlined above:
I didn't re-home mid-job, which I think is what you're suggesting? Is this not the right sequence? I've watched that video several times actually. I was under the impression that you want to home it only once, *after* you've installed the first tool so it has a known reference point for subsequent tools.
I'm confused - if a job fails, how do I know what line it failed at, so I can resume from an appropriate location? I thought that's what that was for. you're saying that the console output is only 2000 lines, but the line indicating the last line machined (above that console) is correct?
The sequence I followed was outlined above:
- Home the machine with the first tool instaled
- run the job until the tool change
- when prompted, change the tool - Masso moves to the tool setter and touches off
I didn't re-home mid-job, which I think is what you're suggesting? Is this not the right sequence? I've watched that video several times actually. I was under the impression that you want to home it only once, *after* you've installed the first tool so it has a known reference point for subsequent tools.
Hi Perry,
The line above the Gcode window is correct. There will be future updates to the way the screen works but at the moment it stops displaying after the first 2000 lines. To resume use the line indicated and the Jump to line will also remember the last line you were machining even after a power outage which is handy.
You are 100% correct.
I have never suggesting homing part way through the machining process. I am saying that if you change the tool between homing the machine and setting your Zero point for the cutter then you need to re-home the machine to establish the new tool offset. If things are done in the right sequence the machine only needs to be homed once. I spent weeks testing and trying to figure out why my 2nd tool change wouldn't work until I sat down and thought about it, finally realizing my mistake.
You said you changed the tool first and then homed the machine, which is correct, after that I assume you zeroed the Z axis to the stock and started machining. It should have worked fine just as it did in your testing earlier. When Masso requested a tool change you only need to change the tool, it will automatically measure on the touch off you installed, work out the new Z zero point and resume cutting.
The result you got is as if you had homed and then changed the tool before Zeroing the Z axis so I was hopeful that you had simply got things out of sequence.
There are other reasons for the result you experienced. Lost steps, binding linear rails, slipping coupler or a cutter slipping in the collet would be the next things to look at.
You will need to do some testing to see where the issue lies.
Cheers
Peter
The line above the Gcode window is correct. There will be future updates to the way the screen works but at the moment it stops displaying after the first 2000 lines. To resume use the line indicated and the Jump to line will also remember the last line you were machining even after a power outage which is handy.
You are 100% correct.
I have never suggesting homing part way through the machining process. I am saying that if you change the tool between homing the machine and setting your Zero point for the cutter then you need to re-home the machine to establish the new tool offset. If things are done in the right sequence the machine only needs to be homed once. I spent weeks testing and trying to figure out why my 2nd tool change wouldn't work until I sat down and thought about it, finally realizing my mistake.
You said you changed the tool first and then homed the machine, which is correct, after that I assume you zeroed the Z axis to the stock and started machining. It should have worked fine just as it did in your testing earlier. When Masso requested a tool change you only need to change the tool, it will automatically measure on the touch off you installed, work out the new Z zero point and resume cutting.
The result you got is as if you had homed and then changed the tool before Zeroing the Z axis so I was hopeful that you had simply got things out of sequence.
There are other reasons for the result you experienced. Lost steps, binding linear rails, slipping coupler or a cutter slipping in the collet would be the next things to look at.
You will need to do some testing to see where the issue lies.
Cheers
Peter
This is from a text editor. N44255 is line 8862
Code:
(CIRCULAR1 3)
N44155 M5
N44160 M9
N44165 M1
N44170 T1 M6
N44175 T2
N44180 S16000 M3
N44185 G54
N44190 G0 X140.277 Y127.919
N44195 Z15.24
N44200 M8
N44205 Z1.524
N44210 G1 Z0.127 F500.
N44215 G18 G3 X139.642 Z-0.508 I-0.635 K0.
N44220 G1 X139.324
N44225 G17 G3 X138.748 Y127.343 I0. J-0.576
N44230 X141.052 I1.152 J0. F1500.
N44235 X138.748 I-1.152 J0.
N44240 X139.324 Y126.767 I0.576 J0. F500.
N44245 G1 X139.642
N44250 G18 G2 X140.277 Z0.127 I0. K0.635
N44255 G0 Z5.08I don't see anything in the gcode that looks like it's being told to take a dive, which is why I think it's got something to do with either the toolsetter or something I'm doing wrong. Just watched your video again, and I swear I followed that exact procedure. The thing is - the first 3 operations using T2 were perfect - exactly where they were supposed to be with no issues on the Z. It was only after I replaced the tool (after being prompted) and Masso touched off on the tool setter.
I'm 99% sure I followed the exact sequence you outlined, but I'm going to do a test run this morning on some MDF to see.
I'll check the collet as well. I don't think the Z is slipping or binding, because afterwards I did some tests to make sure it could return to the work surface repeatedly and it did. I haven't touched the collet since yesterday so I'll see if I can move the end mill up and down in it without loosening the collet nut. That said, I would imagine the most likely movement of the end mill would be up into the router body, not down into the material. If it was loose, wouldn't it be more likely to cut shallower than deeper?
As an aside, because I don't yet have my spindle running, I'm using the DeWalt router that came with my machine. I've decided not to bother setting up an IOT relay to turn the router on and off right now (i'm hoping to get the spindle up and running this week), so I'm wondering if there's a way when post processing to have Masso automatically pause *after* the tool setter has been touched off, so that I have a moment to turn on the router before the next move begins.
breezy
Moderator
Perry,
Can I add, upload the complete NC file so that we can check out, that it isn't doing something strange when it continues from the tool change.
Peter,
If it missed steps on the up movements it would have caused problems before the tool change, also wouldn't missed steps be corrected when MASSO re-measures the tool after the tool change.
Regards,
Arie.
Can I add, upload the complete NC file so that we can check out, that it isn't doing something strange when it continues from the tool change.
Peter,
If it missed steps on the up movements it would have caused problems before the tool change, also wouldn't missed steps be corrected when MASSO re-measures the tool after the tool change.
Regards,
Arie.
breezy
Moderator
Perry,
Yes, in Fusion it is possible to insert manual NC commands and one of them is M01 Optional Program Stop. You may need to turn on the ability to insert commands in Fusion or you could manually edit your NC file and insert it after the tool change.
Regards,
Arie.
Yes, in Fusion it is possible to insert manual NC commands and one of them is M01 Optional Program Stop. You may need to turn on the ability to insert commands in Fusion or you could manually edit your NC file and insert it after the tool change.
Regards,
Arie.
Hi Perry,
Modify your Post processor to add a M00 after the M06 command. That will stop and wait for you to turn on the router before it continues the cut, You hit cycle start to continue.
Up cutting spiral bits pull themselves deeper into the material while down cutting buts move up into the collet if they are loose. Loose can be too tight to move by hand.
I'm really hoping you just got things out of sequence because that is a whole low easier to fix. There is no known bug with the tool change touch off that I am aware of. I don't know what version software you are using but I know you have a G3 and most likely will be running 3.46.1 The software is more than 3 months old so I would have expected a bug with the tool change to have been noticed by now, though it is not impossible for a bug to go unnoticed for years and someone has to be first.
Very true Arie. That is why I agree with Perry that the most likely scenario is the tool height was set wrong by the setter and I think the most likely reason for that was a tool change after the machine was homed by mistake, I've done it myself. Perry assures me it is not the case so I move to the lesser likely options like a slipping cutter which is likely having just been changed. Lost steps and binding carriage is less likely. Software bug is possible but it's likelihood will diminish with the age of the software as older software should be well tested by now.
At the end of the day only more testing and information will get to the bottom of the mystery.
Cheers
Peter
PS Perry if you want to show the Masso screen use the Screen print feature. That way we can see the whole screen and can immediately see if you have G2 or G3 and what software you are running.
Take a screenshot of the current screen by pressing the Prt Sc or CTRL + P keys on the keyboard and a .bmp image file of the current screen will be saved to the USB FLASH drive.
Modify your Post processor to add a M00 after the M06 command. That will stop and wait for you to turn on the router before it continues the cut, You hit cycle start to continue.
Up cutting spiral bits pull themselves deeper into the material while down cutting buts move up into the collet if they are loose. Loose can be too tight to move by hand.
I'm really hoping you just got things out of sequence because that is a whole low easier to fix. There is no known bug with the tool change touch off that I am aware of. I don't know what version software you are using but I know you have a G3 and most likely will be running 3.46.1 The software is more than 3 months old so I would have expected a bug with the tool change to have been noticed by now, though it is not impossible for a bug to go unnoticed for years and someone has to be first.
Very true Arie. That is why I agree with Perry that the most likely scenario is the tool height was set wrong by the setter and I think the most likely reason for that was a tool change after the machine was homed by mistake, I've done it myself. Perry assures me it is not the case so I move to the lesser likely options like a slipping cutter which is likely having just been changed. Lost steps and binding carriage is less likely. Software bug is possible but it's likelihood will diminish with the age of the software as older software should be well tested by now.
At the end of the day only more testing and information will get to the bottom of the mystery.
Cheers
Peter
PS Perry if you want to show the Masso screen use the Screen print feature. That way we can see the whole screen and can immediately see if you have G2 or G3 and what software you are running.
Take a screenshot of the current screen by pressing the Prt Sc or CTRL + P keys on the keyboard and a .bmp image file of the current screen will be saved to the USB FLASH drive.
I know the 1/8" Onsrud I'm using is upcut. I honestly don't know about the 1/4" 3-flute, which is the one at the tool change. It's a CGC Primate CEM14F3, but there's no indication on their site about whether it cuts up or down. I just happen to have a few from my previous CNC router, purchased a couple years ago, and in my tests they performed well with aluminum so I decided to use them for this job. I'll take a close look at the end mill when I go downstairs in a few minutes to work on this. I know I set it so the top of the flute was a bit below the bottom of the collet nut. The hole it made in the aluminum is about 1/4" deep, so if it was pulled down into the material, the flutes should be a lot lower than i normally set them.
The bit did not appear to be any lower than it was when I set it. Certainly not 1/4 lower.
i installed the 1/8 bit (T2) and homed. Then I opened the F4 page and here I m seeing some weirdness:
first, T2 is blank. I had this information in the machine yesterday. I don t know if it went missing before or after the issue I saw yesterday afternoon, but I had previously set up the 1/4 bit as T1 and the 1/8 bit as T2. T2 is now blank, but some of the data for T1 is there.
interestingly, the diameter is blank now for T1. So I opened it up and set it to 6.35mm. After I hit save the Z offset for that tool changed. Why? I only changed the diameter. The offset going in was -10.something mm. After changing the diameter it s -9.935mm.
i re-homed the machine at this point and re-added T2 to the tool list.
since the machine think T1 is loaded I went into the MDI window and entered T2 M06 - the machine touched off on the tool setter after I hit cycle start. The Z offset for T2 is now 0.00000. The Z-offset for T1 is -9.935.
when the tool change comes up midway through the program, I should expect the Z-offset for T1 to change to whatever the toolsetter calculates, correct?
im going to run this program now, on some scrap MDF to see what it does will report back in a bit
i installed the 1/8 bit (T2) and homed. Then I opened the F4 page and here I m seeing some weirdness:
first, T2 is blank. I had this information in the machine yesterday. I don t know if it went missing before or after the issue I saw yesterday afternoon, but I had previously set up the 1/4 bit as T1 and the 1/8 bit as T2. T2 is now blank, but some of the data for T1 is there.
interestingly, the diameter is blank now for T1. So I opened it up and set it to 6.35mm. After I hit save the Z offset for that tool changed. Why? I only changed the diameter. The offset going in was -10.something mm. After changing the diameter it s -9.935mm.
i re-homed the machine at this point and re-added T2 to the tool list.
since the machine think T1 is loaded I went into the MDI window and entered T2 M06 - the machine touched off on the tool setter after I hit cycle start. The Z offset for T2 is now 0.00000. The Z-offset for T1 is -9.935.
when the tool change comes up midway through the program, I should expect the Z-offset for T1 to change to whatever the toolsetter calculates, correct?
im going to run this program now, on some scrap MDF to see what it does will report back in a bit