VFD to Spindle Motor Compatibility & other general questions

[clurgy]

Hello fellow members. Long time stalker, first time poster! I have been involved with CNC equipment for the past 20 years including large turret sheet metal punches, plasma cutters, laser cutters, lathes, milling and router machines and have decided to pursue the journey of building a CNC router with a bed size of between 1220 x 2440 and 1500 x 3000 and am making a parts list for everything before I model it up in 3D with Autodesk Inventor. A few questions to throw out to the group if possible please. I would like to select a VFD that is listed on the Masso site that shows the wiring diagrams, but do I need to match a particular spindle motor with that VFD or can any spindle connect to a VFD? I'd like to buy within Australia, and was wondering if I could get any recommendations (if that's allowed on the forums) as to where I could purchase both the VFD and the spindle (2.2kw air cooled if possible) as a kit from the same supplier please? If it proves difficult to buy both the VFD and the spindle from the same supplier, I just want to be sure that if I buy them separate that they will be compatible with each other. I'm fairly electrically minded and can read schematics to a medium level, so am up to the challenge to connect everything.

Some other general questions: I'd also like to include a tool height sensor to measure the length of the router bits. I see in the Masso shop they aren't available. I'm happy to find one online, but is there anything I need to know (specification wise) before buying one to ensure it will be compatible with the G3 controller?

I've been researching software to create the G-code posts and keep coming back to SheetCam. I can see from past posts that there was a post processor script made for the router output, but I'm not sure if it was successful as there wasn't much follow up from the forum replies. I haven't made a decision on the software as yet and am open to suggestions as long as they can have a Masso post processor output, plus I don't mind spending a bit of coin on the software if it performs to my requirements.

That's enough questions for now, and thank you in advance for any assistance you can give me

 

[cncnutz]

Hi Clurgy,

Welcome to the Forum. I hope you enjoy the build.

The Spindle should match the VFD from the point of view that you would connect a 2.2Kw spindle to a 2.2Kw VFD. A spindle is really just a 3 phase motor with hopefully decent bearings and a collet on one end.

The big thing about a spindle / VFD combination is that you configure the VFD correctly to match the spindle. Wrong configuration of a VFD will turn the spindle into an induction heater and the armature will not like it 1 little bit. In addition to the power settings you need to be able to set the external control parameters correctly to make it function under external control. When I bought mine, I bought the VFD from one supplier and the Spindle I liked the look of, from another.

To measure the tool length you can use something as simple as an aluminum block like I do or a touch probe if you want.

If I'm not mistaken Sheetcam is mostly used for Plasma. If you have Autodesk inventor can you not use that as your Cam software? I'm not up on the various autodesk products but there are Post Processors for Masso, Mill, Plasma and Lathe from Autodesk. You could also look at Fusion 360 since you are familiar with the Autodesk Ecosystem. I imagine they are similar and it's free for the hobbiest.

Personally I favor Vectric software with VCarvePro being my personal choice for my type of machining. I currently use Vectric Aspire but that is a whole different story. There are Masso post processors for all current Vectric software.

At the risk of shameless self promotion check out my YouTube channel especially the step by step series on setting up Masso. If may help answer some questions. Episode 17 covers the toolsetter.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDLVKDi-aTYv7Z7omdaj1jg

Hope it helps and all the best with your build and I'm sure others will offer suggestions.

Cheers Peter

 

[breezy]

@clurgy,

First a question for you, whereabouts in Australia are you located?

before I model it up in 3D with Autodesk Inventor I've been researching software to create the G-code posts and keep coming back to SheetCam.

Unless you already own a copy of Inventor, try Autodesk Fusion 360 which will allow you to model/design and generate/manufacture Gcode in the one program and it is free for hobbyist (Autodesk Fusion terminology). Sheetcam is good for already created DXF files.

pursue the journey of building a CNC router with a bed size of between 1220 x 2440 and 1500 x 3000 and am making a parts list for everything where I could purchase both the VFD and the spindle (2.2kw air cooled if possible) as a kit from the same supplier please?

Check out Ben Harper's 3DTek (Canberra) for all CNC router parts, including the MASSO G3 controller. With that size machine you need to order the 5 axis MASSO so that you can slave the B axis off the Y axis. I can recommend 3DTek as I purchased the Heavy Mill (1500 x 1500) from him. If the site shows out of stock contact him and he will let you know when it will in stock again. (Read that as back order it)

I'd also like to include a tool height sensor to measure the length of the router bits. I see in the Masso shop they aren't available. I'm happy to find one online, but is there anything I need to know (specification wise) before buying one to ensure it will be compatible with the G3 controller?

Get whatever suits your requirements, if it is powered, 12v or 24v depending on the PS you purchase for the MASSO. Once you have it, ask here again and we'll help you get it wired up and working. But you don't need to purchase a THS because a piece to aluminum plate screwed to the baseboard and wired to a MASSO input with a 5.6k pullup resistor works just as well (which is what I'm using).

If you need relays for controlling accessories purchase MASSO branded ones as they have been designed to operate with the G3 model. The cheaper versions available on the internet can cause problems (voltage outputted on the input ports which is a NO NO).

When I started this reply it was just before dinner so I left it to go and eat, coming back to it I thought better check to see if some else may have answered and sure enough Peter beat me to it.

As Peter said he uses Vectric Aspire which is great for doing "art" type work and his youtube channel is very good at explaining how to use and setup MASSO.

Regards,

Arie.

PS We are a friendly group here and a first name helps in answering questions.

 

[clurgy]

Thank you very much for your response Peter @cncnutz Your info on the VFD question clears that up perfectly cheers!

If I'm not mistaken Sheetcam is mostly used for Plasma. If you have Autodesk inventor can you not use that as your Cam software? I'm not up on the various autodesk products but there are Post Processors for Masso, Mill, Plasma and Lathe from Autodesk. You could also look at Fusion 360 since you are familiar with the Autodesk Ecosystem. I imagine they are similar and it's free for the hobbiest.

SheetCam has a specific user interface in it for routing with lots of features similar to EnRoute software I've used on a MultiCam router before. I have a paid version of Inventor and the CAM add-on which has the Masso post processor in available, however the interface of tooling it within Inventor or Fusion 360 is more of a "milling" type layout and doesn't give the options like a dedicated program for posting to a router. It's still early days, so I will research further between now and nearing the build end stages to see what else is around.

At the risk of shameless self promotion check out my YouTube channel especially the step by step series on setting up Masso. If may help answer some questions. Episode 17 covers the toolsetter.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDLVKDi-aTYv7Z7omdaj1jg

Haha, not a shameless promotion at all! Your videos are very informative and simple to understand!

I will keep a log of the build progress and post from time to time, however we are also building a new house in the coming months, so the router project will no doubt have to be put aside a few times with everything going on.

Cheers,

Lucas

 

[clurgy]

Hi @breezy,

Thank you for your detailed reply. I am up in sunny Townsville since 2003 - prior to that I was in Ararat in western Victoria where I completed my sheetmetal apprenticeship then moved straight up here once I received my trade certificate. I stuck with my trade for a while up here operating CNC turret punches and CNC press brakes, then ventured off the tools and put myself through cad drawing courses and ended up becoming operations manager at a local laser cutting company for 4 years, then after a couple of other miscellaneous jobs I'm now a draftsman at a steel manufacturing company where I spend all day modelling with Autodesk Inventor - structural projects, screw conveyors, bucket elevators, belt conveyors, pressure vessels and all sorts of mine related stuff. On the side I also subcontract myself to a few other businesses in town mainly doing sheet metal models like aluminium canopies, ute trays, bullbars etc. (have attached a canopy drawing I did recently for a local guy)

Enough about me - I will check out the 3DTek website regarding the VFD and spindle setup. I'd like to design & build the frame and gantry with Z-axis myself, I just need to find the right type of extruded aluminium profiles that won't flex under loads and gives me plenty of T-slots to bolt all the linear rails and other items to. Oh, and are the VFD's that 3DTek sell compatible with Masso? I'm sure they are, I just don't see any documentation listed for the "InverterTek" brands that are on the 3DTek website.

If you need relays for controlling accessories purchase MASSO branded ones as they have been designed to operate with the G3 model. The cheaper versions available on the internet can cause problems (voltage outputted on the input ports which is a NO NO).

With the type of build I'm doing, would I need anything controlled via relays? It hasn't popped up in my parts list yet, but I'm sure I haven't thought of everything yet!

Let me know if you can think of anything else I need to factor in. I'll share the parts list before I start buying things if you'd be kind enough to run your eye over it and make any suggestions & comments!

Thanks again for your support

Regards, Lucas.

 

[breezy]

Lucas,

I have a paid version of Inventor and the CAM add-on which has the Masso post processor in available, however the interface of tooling it within Inventor or Fusion 360 is more of a "milling" type layout and doesn't give the options like a dedicated program for posting to a router.

Yes Autodesk's interface is "mill" originated and I have "adjusted" the MASSO PP to suit the way I want the Gcode be outputted, whereas Vectric Aspire is more "router" suited.

I am up in sunny Townsville since 2003 - prior to that I was in Ararat in western Victoria

Nice town, I visited in 1980 when I was based in Sydney and passed through Ararat on my way back to Perth.

Let me know if you can think of anything else I need to factor in. I'll share the parts list before I start buying things if you'd be kind enough to run your eye over it and make any suggestions & comments!

Will do.

Oh, and are the VFD's that 3DTek sell compatible with Masso? I'm sure they are, I just don't see any documentation listed for the "InverterTek" brands that are on the 3DTek website.

Attached Invertek-Optidrive-E3-Manual

Regards,

Arie.

 

[clurgy]

Thanks again Pete @cncnutz & Arie @breezy for your responses. I looked up the Vectric software options and am blown away by them! After going through all of them, I believe the VCarve software will suit me perfectly with its list of features. If I ever need to do 3D routing which VCarve can't do, I'll just use Inventor/Fusion 360, but I can't see it being done very often. The VCarve software retails for $1200AUD, which for how simple it is to use and the features it offers, I reckon that's a price I can justify! I actually forgot to mention that I setup a laser engraving business for my wife to run about 10 years ago, and it is still going well with it being her income as a sole trader. We started off with 1 laser, an Epilog brand USA made unit - we ended up getting that busy we needed another laser, so we had 2 lasers running within the first few years. We found over time that the Epilog lasers were prone to problem after problem, so we made the decision to sell them and upgrade to a Trotec (Austrian built) "Flexx" laser about 4 years ago, which has both Co2 and Fiber laser sources inside it. Although quite pricey (our Epilog's were between 25 and 30K) the Trotec unit was about $85K, we are glad we made the change as it has run perfectly since we got it.

The CNC router build purchases I will put through her business as it will form another avenue for a service we can offer within the engraving business, so I'm happy to spend the coin on decent equipment and software as it can be claimed at tax time.

I do have another question please. I'm deciding on the profile of T-slot extrusion to use for the gantry axis that the spindle moves along (Y-axis I believe) and was wondering about how much they might flex under load. I have my eyes on a 200 x 80mm profile which is about the largest I've found (see here https://au-product.item24.com/en/pr...es-1001042794/profile-8-200x80-natural-48335/) but is that an overkill? It also gives me lot's of T-slots to mount the linear rail and rack & pinion gear track to. Idealy I'd like to be able to router 3mm aluminium sheet if possible, but not sure if that will flex/bow the gantry under load as it's cutting. Actually, I'm not sure the standard 2.2kw spindles will be able to cut through 3mm thick aluminium, as one of the local sheet metal shops here has one and they have a high speed spindle (see attached photo) on their MulitCam Router. It won't be a deal breaker if I can't cut aluminium, but would be great if it could. This sheet metal workshop has offered to cut any brackets, plates etc for me from aluminium for my build project which I will no doubt take advantage of!

One final question that probably gets asked a lot - water cooled V's air cooled spindle! Haha, yes I had to put it out there for your opinions please. It seems when I do a search for 2.2kw spindles, they mostly come as water cooled ones. I was looking to go air cooled so it's one less thing to worry about, but am open to suggestions and comments and will happily go water cooled if needed.



Thanks again gents, you've been so helpful!

Cheers, Lucas

 

[breezy]

Lucas,

water cooled V's air cooled spindle! Haha, yes I had to put it out there for your opinions please.

Air cooled:

Cons

• Noisy
  
• poor cooling at low speeds
  

Pros

• No cooling circuit/system to worry about.
  

Water cooled:

Cons

• Separate cooling circuit/system
  

Pros

• Quiet (cutter makes more noise than the spindle)
  
• No cooling problems at low speed
  

Just a couple that I can think of for now.

I'm deciding on the profile of T-slot extrusion to use for the gantry axis that the spindle moves along (Y-axis I believe)

Generally the short axis is the X axis and the long is Y axis, as the short side is open for loading material and the machine origin is in the front left corner (loading side). Then you apply the left hand rule, thumb pointing up Z axis, index pointing away from you Y axis and middle pointing to the right X axis and all pointing in the positive direction. As MASSO only slaves the Y axis to the B axis you will need to get the 5 axis version. (No difference in the hardware, it's all in the software.)

and was wondering about how much they might flex under load. I have my eyes on a 200 x 80mm profile which is about the largest I've found, but is that an overkill?

You would need to look up the technical data on the extrusion for flex and calculate if that will fit within the tolerance margin you want to work with. On the 3DTek Heavy Mill the X axis beam is 100 x 100 and I have stressed it when I jammed the spindle carriage against an immovable object whilst moving the carriage forward and it only twisted on the end bracket bolts, easy fix loosened bolts, squared up the beam/spindle and tighten bolts.

I'm not sure the standard 2.2kw spindles will be able to cut through 3mm thick aluminium,

I haven't done it, but the Heavy Mill is supposed to be able to do it. You need to keep the feed up to prevent the aluminum galling to the bit, small depth of cut, medium spindle speed and use single flute bits, with lots of lubrication (WD40). That's the story as I have heard it.

Regards,

Arie.

 

[clurgy]

Hi @breezy & @cncnutz, just wondering if i could get your opinion please on this stepper motor kit and if there would be any incompatibilities pairing it with Masso. See kit here >>> https://oceancontrols.com.au/cnc-052.html

I asked them (Ocean Controls) the question why the motors are all dual shaft, and their response was "We get dual shaft motors because some people want to do a manual adjustment of position and the dual shaft aren't much more expensive", but to me they serve no purpose and will just get in the way.

They have offered me to substitute the motors shown in that kit with these Leadshine ones which seem much better http://www.leadshine.com/productdet...ucttype=stepper-motors&series=CM&model=86CM85

I have asked them for a quote on a 4-axis kit setup, and have asked that the 4th stepper motor be a smaller torque one as it will be used to drive the z-axis up and down which won't require as much balls as the others.

I will look to 3DTek for the spindle kit and any other items needed for the build, if you could just let me know your thoughts on my choice of axis motors and drivers please

 

[breezy]

Lucas,

Leadshine are reported to be excellent products, so you can't go wrong there. Only I would order all the steppers to be the same size / torque. The Z axis has lift the spindle against gravity and hold it steady when at cutting height. Most reports of problems with Z axis are missed steps in the up direction, resulting in deeper cuts as the job progresses.

I have asked them for a quote on a 4-axis kit setup,

I assume that is only steppers and drivers, no other bits?

As I've only ever purchased one router kit from Ben at 3DTek, I wouldn't say I'm a expert on sizing steppers and drivers for a machine, but I did my research when I made the recommendation to the BMS committee to purchase the Heavy Mill and one of the considerations was Australian suppliers.

Regards,

Arie.

 

[clurgy]

Hi Arie (@breezy),

I am about to pull the trigger on the first stage of purchasing before EOFY and was wondering if you could please run your eye over the attached parts list and see if you can see any issues with what's on there thus far. It's most of the electronic parts needed, and I will begin on the hardware list next. Feel free to give me a call on 0419524035 if it's easier to talk than reply on here.



Regards,

Lucas