Wiring 2 spindles: AMB Milling Motor 1400 FME-P DI 230V with multi-head

[Jordi]

Hello again. I'm trying to figure out how to install two AMB 1400 FME-P DI milling machines in a multihead system. I have read the section on the website, I understand the connection through solenoid valves that will lower and raise cylinders... I understand that. Okay,

When activating the spindle, it only shows an example of a connection with a frequency converter with two UVW spindles. But it is not my valid connection type since it will not use vfd.




In my case I will have 2 AMB1400 FME-PDI 230V milling machines :
CNC-router connection (three-core)
brown: 10 - 26 V DC for power supply
green; 0 - 10 V DC for speed control
white: 0 V for ground/ GND

I see In MASSO "SPINDLE CONTROL" outputs that "output 1 "corresponds to the 0-10V control ,and "output 2" corresponds to spindle activation Forward ( 24v are powered through the masso relay on activation)


This connection would be great if I only had one spindle, but I have 2!

Reading the documentation again shows:

"The output also directs the Spindle control to the required spindle. This can be done using 2 methods.
1 The Spindle control signals Speed, Forward & Reverse could be switched to the designated Spindle and each spindle would have it's own dedicated VFD.
2 The Machine has one VFD and the 3 Phase power is switched to the selected Spindle using a 3 Phase contactor relay unit."

Type 2 is the one shown in the example, which I have already explained is not my case.

Maybe type 1 will work for me, but I have no idea how to make that "switch" change to connect "SPEED 0-10V" and "Forward" in each spindle in addition to also having the coils connected for using with multi-head.

Can someone help me with some instructions to connect 2 AMB machines in multi-head. Thanks in advance.

 

[zombieengineer]

Disclaimer - I have not practical experience with CNC VFD drives.

My initial reaction of your wiring diagram of one VFD driving two spindles selected by relays was "NO!!"

Variable Frequency Drives (VFD) generally have parameters describing the spindle that is connected for the purposes of load control. The only way that could be made to work is that both spindles were identical models from the same manufacturer. Get the VFD spindle parameters wrong and you will cook the spindle (ask @cncnutz about how he burnt out a spindle).

For the dual AMB spindle scenario there is the issue of dual 0-10V signals:

• Connect both AMB spindle speed control signals to the MASSO spindle (should work)
• Use an "LM358 Weak Signal Amplifier" board and set the gain to 1 to act as a buffer

For the "Spindle VFD Run" signal - you may need to create a "diode logic" OR gate, with a capacitor to act as an off-delay connected to a relay module input. The time constant for the off-delay will depend on the input resistance of the relay module.



WARNING - Maths ahead!

Based on yesterday's posting I am going to assume that the input resistance of the relay module is 150Ω.
The time constant of an RC filter is R x C = 150 x 1000 x 10^-6 = 0.15 seconds

Now comes the tricky guesses: The optoisolator voltage drop is 1.1V, the circuit turns on at 1.2V and the MASSO output when HIGH is 3.5V (allowing for voltage drop across diodes). When the MASSO output is on the capacitor will be 2.4V above the optoisolator voltage drop, the optoisolator turns off when the input is 0.1V above the optoisolator voltage drop. The exponential decay will require ln(2.4/0.1) = 3.1 time constants to reach the turn off voltage. Therefore the above circuit will provide roughly 3.1 x 0.15 = 0.45 seconds of delay.

Given the nature of some of the guesses I suspect the actual delay time will be within a factor of 2 (0.2 to 0.9 seconds). Some trial-and-error testing will be required, adjust the size of the capacitor until the correct value is found. If you start with a very large capacitor (say 4,700 μF) and end up with a time period too long, you can then estimate the correct capacitor size as the time delay will be proportional to capacitor value (if the time delay is 3 times too long then use a capacitor that is 1/3rd the previous value).

 

[breezy]

My initial reaction of your wiring diagram of one VFD driving two spindles selected by relays was "NO!!"

This is common practice, I have wiring diagram of a 1992 machine where one of multiple spindles on one VFD is selected by contactors switching the VFD output.

F4 & F5 are overload contactors and TR2, TR1 & TL are the switching contactors. Note the date.

Maybe type 1 will work for me, but I have no idea how to make that "switch" change to connect "SPEED 0-10V" and "Forward" in each spindle in addition to also having the coils connected for using with multi-head.

For the dual AMB spindle scenario there is the issue of dual 0-10V signals:

Jordi is not trying to run both spindles at the same time, he just needs help to wire the control signals through relays to switch between one or the other.

 

[Jordi]

ZombieEngineer, breezy Thanks for your answers.


That's exactly as Breezy says, with the multi-head system, only one of them will be active.


These spindles have internally, we could say a mini vfd, a speed regulator, it is regulated with 0-10V, and they are powered with 24V.
Each coil causes the pneumatic cylinder of the linear system of the spindle to work to lower, when the tool is activated, one or the other.

https://www.amb-elektrik.de/media/pdf/2a/d6/16/41501_Beiblatt_Fra-smotor_Portalsteuerung_DE-EN.pdf

The problem is that I only have one 0-10V output , and one fordward activation signal and two milling machines and I don't know how to make the electrical change to use one spindle or another, in addition to activating the cylinder coil.

 

[zombieengineer]

- If activating the spindle lowers the cylinder down then a series of switches that indicates if any of the spindles are down could be used in place of "Spindle VFD Run".

The output driver of the MASSO controller speed output (I believe) is an LM358. This device is what is known as an "operational amplifier" (op-amp is the shortened name that is commonly used). The maximum output current is around 20 mA which should be able to drive two spindles simultaneously.

If you want/need separate 0-10V outputs for each spindle...
The "LM358 Weak Signal Amplifier" board (can be found on either eBay or AliExpress, you want the version with only one variable resistor) is basically the same chip. The input only requires about 0.00002 mA input current but provide a separate 20 mA output. If the variable resistor is set to one end the amplifier circuit effectively has a gain of 1 and the output voltage follows the input voltage (search for "op-amp non-inverting amplifier" and "op-amp voltage follower" to understand the following circuit diagrams).

 

[breezy]

If you want/need separate 0-10V outputs for each spindle...

Zombie you are over complicating the answer, he just needs a 4PDT or two DPDT relays driven of the secondary spindle UP/DOWN output (via MASSO relay module).
The speed, direction (FWD) signals and the two power leads connected to the common of each set of contacts, NC contacts to Main and NO contacts to secondary spindle.
When he switches to tool 101 its associated UP/DOWN output operates the solenoid and switches the signals and power.

 

[Jordi]

First of all, thank you all for your help.

Secondly, if I choose this 4pdt at 24vdc could it work? or what would be appropriate?
I see that there are several 4dpt types, some mechanical type and others more electronic.

For example:

Omron LY4N-D2-DC24:​

Models with built-in diodes and operation indicators

https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/Omron-Automation-and-Safety/LY4N-D2-DC24?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsqIr59i2oRciBvRuzpaT96VRTr2gOwYEE%3D

Product Attribute	Attribute Value
Manufacturer:	Omron
Product Category:	General Purpose Relays
RoHS:	Details
Product:	Power Relays
Type:	Standard
Coil Voltage:	24 VDC
Relay Contact Form:	4 Form C (4PDT-NO, NC)
Contact Current Rating:	10 A
Contact Termination:	Quick Connect
Mounting Style:	Panel Mount
Switching Voltage:	250 VAC, 125 VDC
Coil Termination:	Quick Connect
Coil Type:	Non-Latching
Coil Resistance:	350 Ohms
Coil Current:	69 mA
Contact Material:	Silver Alloy (Ag)
Series:	LY
Length:	41.5 mm
Width:	28 mm
Height:	36 mm
Packaging:	Bulk
Brand:	Omron Automation and Safety
Contact Form:	4PDT (4 Form C)
Power Consumption:	1.5 W
Product Type:	General Purpose Relays

This 4pdt model can work, diodes or not diodes?.Thanks.

 

[breezy]

This 4pdt model can work, diodes or not diodes?.Thanks.

As you will be driving the relay from the MASSO relay module contacts, diode is not necessary, but it would not hurt to use a flyback diode, it just helps to save relay contacts from arcing.